• Bureaucrat@hexbear.net
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    12 days ago

    It’s well documented

    You don’t really know that, you haven’t really provided anything but wikipedia articles. You have looked at no first hand sources and you have provided none.

    But the topic of the conversation was Stalin killing a lot of people and not just CEOs

    No, the topic was stalin killing a bunch of CEOs, then you chimed in. The post isn’t a discussion post wanting to engage in vague allegations from people who will feverishly search the wikipedia references for the first book with a title that sounds like it’ll support their claims.

    Stalin killing a lot of people and not just CEOs.

    Yeah, nazis. We’ve been through this. At least look through the black book of communism.

    • Sundial@lemm.ee
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      12 days ago

      You and I can argue the numbers until we’re both blue in the face. But the fact of the matter is he did purge a lot of people out of Russian politics and society. If you think that’s an incorrect statement than you need to explain why.

      • cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml
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        11 days ago

        Part of the problem is that even the Soviet perspective on what happened during Stalin’s time in power is in question. Khrushchev clearly lied about the extent to which Stalin was a brutal dictator. I suspect he did that to distance his own government from the brutality of the decisions the Soviet government was forced to make in order to survive through WWII. Capitalist countries were happy accept that narrative because it aligned with their desire to portray socialism as an abject failure equivalent to fascism. As such, by the time the Soviet archives were opened up for academics to research what actually took place during Stalin’s reign, the narratives concerning him were already set in stone.

        • Sundial@lemm.ee
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          11 days ago

          No disagreements on what you said.

          In another discussion on this thread I quoted some numbers provided from declassified documents from the USSR after it’s fall. And even those have numbers in the millions. It seems those are the generally accepted numbers among historians.

      • Bureaucrat@hexbear.net
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        11 days ago

        You and I can argue the numbers until we’re both blue in the face

        What? We haven’t argued any numbers yet. We’re at a very basic level where I am asking you to do basic due diligence if you’re going to discuss a topic, we haven’t even broached it yet.

        But the fact of the matter is he did purge a lot of people out of Russian politics and society.

        Once again you don’t know that, since all you base your statements on is heavily editorialised wikipedia articles. You haven’t actually done any research on your claims. I barely have any idea what you’re talking about, Stalin was in politics for a long time and I have no idea what particular set of brainworms you’re working with.

        If you think that’s an incorrect statement than you need to explain why.

        I don’t disagree that Stalin had people purged? Again, what we are having can barely be called a discussion, since you’re still flailing at the basic level of “engage in good faith”. It seems like you opened your mouth about something you don’t really understand, you got challenged, and instead of having a healthy reaction and engaging in good faith you instead started flailing.

        • Sundial@lemm.ee
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          11 days ago

          I gave you examples and all you said was you didn’t give a shit since I said wikipedia.

          You’re not one to talk about arguing in good faith. I’ve been pretty civil with you given some of your stupid replies to my other comments in this thread.

          Again, if you want to tell me that what I’ve read is wrong then feel free to explain it to me. And not from very outdated books from the 30s or the CIA document from the 50s, neither of which say that I’m wrong btw.

            • Sundial@lemm.ee
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              11 days ago

              I did in a different comment jn this thread. This person told me to read alternate sources such as Blackshirts and Reds. I did. It just backed up what I was reading on Wikipedia.

                  • ThermonuclearEgg [she/her, they/them]@hexbear.net
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                    11 days ago

                    They don’t think that Blackshirts and Reds was backing up what you read in Wikipedia when you (allegedly) would have been reading quotes like the following, and didn’t even comment on them. You didn’t even have to actually read the book to see these, they’re right here on WikiQuote.

                    During the Cold War, the anti-communist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.

                    During the years of Stalin’s reign, the Soviet nation made dramatic gains in literacy, industrial wages, health care, and women’s rights. These accomplishments usually go unmentioned when the Stalinist era is discussed. To say that “socialism didn’t work” is to ignore that it did. In Eastern Europe, Russia, China, Mongolia, North Korea, and Cuba, revolutionary communism created a life for the mass of people that was far better than the wretched existence they had endured under feudal lords, military bosses, foreign colonizers, and Western capitalists. The end result was a dramatic improvement in the living conditions for hundreds of millions of people on a scale never before or since witnessed in history.

                    If anything, the breakup of the communist states has brought a colossal victory for global capitalism and imperialism, with its correlative increase in human misery, and a historic setback for revolutionary liberation struggles everywhere. There will be harder times ahead for even modestly reformist national governments, as the fate of Panama and Iraq have indicated. The breakup also means a net loss of global pluralism and more intensive socio-economic inequality throughout the world.

                    Now, I’ll freely admit I haven’t read it, but since you say you have, and the full text is right here for all of us to see whether you’re being honest about it, would you be so kind as to point out a specific quote that supports your claims?

          • Bureaucrat@hexbear.net
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            11 days ago

            I gave you examples and all you said was you didn’t give a shit since I said wikipedia.

            “Hey I think this”
            Okay, on what basis?
            “Wikipedia”
            Okay, then I don’t really care
            “Wow I gave you so many examples”

            You’re not one to talk about arguing in good faith. I’ve been pretty civil with you given some of your stupid replies to my other comments in this thread.

            Oh no muh civility! Yeah dude civility is exclusively tied to the words you use and not your behaviour or actions.

            Again, if you want to tell me that what I’ve read is wrong then feel free to explain it to me.

            Okay, wikipedia is a site run by nazis and frequently misrepresents information.

            And not from very outdated books from the 30s or the CIA document from the 50s, neither of which say that I’m wrong btw.

            So you don’t want first hand sources, but rather editorialized online articles edited by nazis? Neat.
            Kinda convenient that you then still ignore this brief breakdown that is now being shared with you for the fourth time.