Kind of having a difficult time understanding/finding sources on it. Humanism seems pretty cool at first glance, though I haven’t read much so I can’t be sure.

What do you guys know and think about it?

  • Anna ☭🏳️‍⚧️@lemmygrad.ml
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    2 years ago

    After reading a lot about Marxist-Humanism, I begin to see that humanism, and centering on human beings are not the same at all. For example, Juche supposes that the man is the master of everything, and the master of his own world and destiny. [1] However, this is not at all the same as Marxist-Humanism. Different conceptions of humanism in marxist circles have been brought up over the years. However, it is clear that Humanism has been used in a revisionist manner. In the case of Bukharin, a well known revisionist, he utilised “Socialist Humanism”, which denounces collectivisation and supports class collaboration. [2] Even the MIA states that Marxist-Humanism only arose after Khrushchev’s Secret Speech, which it also claimed that it also arose during the Prague Spring. MIA also states that it never gained a foothold, and even compared it to Eurocommunism which shows you how questionable the ideology really is. [3]

    Other comments state that Humanism is idealism, it may be the case. I’m not exactly sure. But for all I know, it’s that Marxist-Humanism and Humanism in general is utilised by revisionists, and therefore should be opposed.

  • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
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    2 years ago

    At first glance it seems that humanism may be compatible, as Marxism wants the best for humanity (communism), but also it doesn’t seem to be compatible with historical idealism as the philosophy of it is very idealist and individualistic. Happy cake day btw, it seems it is around the anniversary of the Genzedong being purged from Reddit.

    • TeezyZeezy@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      2 years ago

      Yeah, that’s why I was wondering, it sounded pretty cool and like our cup of tea.

      Can you elaborate on why it’s idealist/individualist? If you don’t have time I understand lol educating people can be exhausting

      Thanks! I made an account right before it was purged. I miss GenZedong, but I’ve really had a nice cozy community experience on here and much nicer/more understanding that I’m still learning than redditors often were lol

      • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
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        2 years ago

        According to Wikipedia: “Humanism is a philosophical stance that emphasizes the individual and social potential, and agency of human beings, whom it considers the starting point for serious moral and philosophical inquiry. The meaning of the term “humanism” has changed according to successive intellectual movements that have identified with it.” My understanding is that humanism arose with the enlightenment which was the movement post ‘Black Death’ to stop accepting religious explanations of the world as default and start using science and reason. This gave rise to multiple ideologies and sects of philosophical thought, primarily liberalism, but also Marx could be included at the later end of the enlightenment. There are multiple definitions of humanism and the main two I know are basically part of early liberalism, and just anyone who wants the best for humanity. The latter being from some liberal book I read a while back that was claiming “liberalism says the rights of people as individuals should be pursued for humanity, communism says everyone’s literally equal and should be treated as such for the good of humanity, and fascism says the Aryan race should be defended from all the inferior ones for the best of humanity” def anti-communist, but still a definite you could accept. However, I would say we don’t need to associate with humanism as Marxism is enlightenment on its own and we do not necessarily think humans’ interests should be prioritized at the risk of harming the “lower animals” for socialism also means protecting the biosphere. The last person I heard explicit associate with humanism was a larouchite, so that’s also partially why I’m suspicious. TLDR: I don’t have a strong position against associating with Humanism, but I don’t see the benefit of doing such. Although, as Marxists it might be useful to study other enlightenment thinkers. Nvm on the idealist thing, I can’t find much evidence so.

        • TeezyZeezy@lemmygrad.mlOP
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          2 years ago

          Thanks again for a brilliant response. Really appreciate it.

          Yeah, I’m not going to go around calling myself a humanist or anything but it just seemed compatible at first glance and I swear I saw a label somewhere that said “Marxist-Humanist” but.

          Another comrade found some evidence on why it is idealistic, so no worries :) Thanks again comrade

  • CommunistWolf@lemmygrad.ml
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    2 years ago

    One very short version would be “humanism is idealism, marxism is materialism, so this is a contradiction in terms”. Timpanaro touches on it in “On Materialism”, although marxist-humanism specifically only gets a brief mention; he focuses more on structuralism as his object lesson.

    • TeezyZeezy@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      2 years ago

      Thanks for replying, I see. Why is humanism idealism? The only thing I know is what’s on the Wikipedia page and some other sites; I haven’t even made it to the theory itself yet.

      It seemed to me like basing morality off of human reason/needs and the scientific process. Is that a correct understanding? If so, to me it seemed pretty interesting/something MLs would agree with.

      Forgive me, I feel very inferior rn lmao (not cause of anything you said just I don’t know enough)

      • CommunistWolf@lemmygrad.ml
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        2 years ago

        Don’t worry, I only read On Materialism this year and would have been clueless about this if you’d asked last year :D. I’m still absorbing it and the various follow-ups, so hardly an expert or authority.

        I’ve been suspicious of humanism-itself for a lot longer, though. As with everything, it becomes watered down and repackaged over time, until you end up with pithy statements like “good without god”, etc, and as a general statement of anti-religion, fine, sure, that’s marxism-compatible, materiaism-compatible, etc. But in this form, it’s also unnecessary to synthesise it into marxism at all, since what you end up with is not “marxist-humanism”, it’s just “marxism”. The only reason to add “-humanism” to the end would be marketing, branding, that kind of thing.

        What’s interesting to dig into is where humanism and marxism don’t overlap, whether that’s just addressing different things, or actually conflicting with each other. That’s where a synthesis of the two has tricky questions to answer, and maybe - just maybe - value to bring. That kind of effort will use a much more in-depth and rigorous understanding of what humanism is, with jumping-off points like the amsterdam declaration, etc.

        What did marxist-humanists come up with when doing this? I’m as in the dark as you as to specifics, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist_humanism briefly say:

        Marxist humanists reject an understanding of society based on natural science, asserting the centrality and distinctiveness of people and society.

        So this basically says “historical materialism is false”, and it comes about because humanists believe individual human free will is supreme and, somehow, the aggregate effect of humans having free will cannot be investigated scientifically.

        Marxist humanism views Marxist theory as not primarily scientific but philosophical. Social science is not another natural science and people and society are not instantiations of universal natural processes. Rather, people are subjects – centers of consciousness and values – and science is an embedded part of the totalizing perspective of humanist philosophy.

        So much for “scientific socialism”, I suppose. My best summary of this would be “science doesn’t work on people, sike”. Forgive me my skepticism.

        Echoing the inheritance of Marx’s thought from German Idealism, Marxist humanism holds that reality does not exist independently of human knowledge, but is partly constituted by it

        I’ll get my coat.

        (edit: I didn’t say explicitly, but each of these three examples is chock-full of idealism, which is to say, “metaphysical perspectives which assert that reality is indistinguishable and inseparable from perception and understanding; that reality is a mental construct closely connected to ideas”. What marxist-humanism takes from humanism, in these passages, is idealism, and the “synthesis” is to discard materialism and replace it with that idealism)

        • TeezyZeezy@lemmygrad.mlOP
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          2 years ago

          Thank you so much. Wonderful response, very informative and digestible. I’ll read On Materialism next! Right now I’m reading “Socialism Betrayed” as recommended to me by a friend. Really good book about the realities, mistakes and successes of the USSR.

          Anywho, I really appreciate youe response. It can be exhausting and time-consuming to educate others so thank you