Thank you. We know that Mohammed existed, yet I don’t believe that an angel came to him with the words of the Quran, and I don’t believe in islam. Most scholars agree that Jesus existed, so it feels counter productive to try to assert that he didn’t exist. His existence is not a threat to my worldview, and besides, I follow the truth wherever it leads, not just where it’s convenient.
Consensus does matter when it’s a consensus of experts in a specific field. When I look at evolution, I follow the consensus of evolutionary biologists. When I look at the historicity of Jesus, I follow the consensus of historical scholars who study that era. I’m not an expert myself, so I have to trust someone else. I think that’s true for everyone outside of their expertise.
Plus I would probably agree with you that if a “scholar” believes that Jesus did miracles, I wouldn’t trust that scholar.
All I’m saying is that most likely, some guy named Joshua was baptised and crucified, and in between probably did some preaching that inspired a religion. Given that this is the consensus view by experts on the subject, the onus is on others to provide evidence that this isn’t the case. But acknowledging that this is the case doesn’t threaten my belief in materialism.
Consensus does matter when it’s a consensus of experts in a specific field.
Can experts be wrong, yes or no?
When I look at evolution, I follow the consensus of evolutionary biologists.
We have evidence of evolution. Evidence that you can gain access to and verify for yourself. Frankly this is theist logic right here. The consensus of people who have studied the Bible is that Jesus was the literal son of god. Do you follow that consensus as well or only the ones that support your view?
When I look at the historicity of Jesus, I follow the consensus of historical scholars who study that era. I’m not an expert myself, so I have to trust someone else. I think that’s true for everyone outside of their expertise.
You trust, I will verify. Which one of us is being a better skeptic here, the person who puts faith in others to tell them what happened or the person looking at the actual evidence?
I think that’s true for everyone outside of their expertise.
I am a specialized worker and if you came to my work I can show you exactly the evidence that went into every single decision I made. There is no magic, nothing up my sleeve, no demands of trust. Just evidence.
Plus I would probably agree with you that if a “scholar” believes that Jesus did miracles, I wouldn’t trust that scholar.
But the ones that confirmed what you already believed you would trust and not verify? Do you know what expert shopping is?
All I’m saying is that most likely, some guy named Joshua was baptised and crucified, and in between probably did some preaching that inspired a religion.
What evidence did you use to make that determination?
Given that this is the consensus view by experts on the subject,
Again. I am not interested in consensus, I am interested in what is true.
the onus is on others to provide evidence that this isn’t the case.
In that case every atheist should give up now because the consensus is that there is a god and it is up to us to disprove it, which we can’t do. The burder of proof is always on the person making the claim how common the claim is does not remove that burden.
But acknowledging that this is the case doesn’t threaten my belief in materialism.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Simply because we lack proper primary sources concerning Jesus from during his lifetime does not mean that he never existed. Additionally, those who would care most about the existence of Jesus couldn’t care less about historical proof; they’ve already accepted everything on faith. You are free to be technically correct (the best kind of correct), but it’s a meaningless hill to die on.
Simply because we lack proper primary sources concerning Jesus from during his lifetime does not mean that he never existed.
It also means that we can’t assert that he did. We do have evidence however that he didn’t exist. The accounts all differ and are convenient for those spreading it. So while I can’t disprove him or ghosts I can point to the people making money off ghost hunting shows.
Additionally, those who would care most about the existence of Jesus couldn’t care less about historical proof; they’ve already accepting everything on faith.
If you mean modern people: Just because other people have a low bar doesn’t mean we have to.
If you mean people at the time: that is convenient. Suspiciously so.
I already provided evidence for my position. If you would like to provide references that refute the Wikipedia pages on these topics I will be happy to read them.
I am pretty hardcore atheist and I have a huge bias against Christianity. But you are either taking your bias too far or ignoring evidence.
Which is ironic because you’re making your belief more important than the existing evidence.
Please present your evidence. On my side I have a century of textual analysis that shows that everyone involved in the documentation process was a liar, as well as legendary figures such as William Tell, John Frumm, and Ned Lud.
Do you mean all of the writings that included him? The Dead Sea scrolls they found even disparaged his name.
Regardless of my desire to believe he didn’t exist, it is unlikely that people made him up at that time, then had random people talk and write about him.
By your standards, Alexander the Great did not exist, Socrates was a dream, and Siddartha Guatama was a fable.
Oh really the dead sea scrolls mention Jesus of Nazareth? Please inform me. What did you find in the scrolls that mentions him?
This is going to be so amusing.
it is unlikely that people made him up at that time, then had random people talk and write about him.
You mean the way people did with Ned Ludd going so far as to write letters claiming to be him? Or the way they did with John Frumm? Or William Tell? In any case we don’t actually need that to happen. Of the 27 books of the OT 23 follow the traditions of St. Paul directly. A man who admitted that he never once saw Jesus. The remaining borrowed from Paul and a theoretically community (no evidence for) founded by James. We don’t need random people to do it. We have a charismatic well spoken leader who spoke of his visions.
By your standards, Alexander the Great did not exist,
You don’t know what my standards are. You are assuming not asking. Also we have a physical inscription written contemporary about the man from a disinterested party.
Socrates was a dream,
I wonder what blog you are copying now. He could have been but the claim of the man is ordinary so it unlikely to be a forgery. Besides the stories of him were written for an audience that knew him and no one is recorded objecting.
and Siddartha Guatama was a fable.
You really should cite the blog you are copying and posting from. We have some evidence that he existed. Since we have the Sangha and that shows signs of having one person creating it. We have relics such as the tree sapling of his tree. We have references in the Pali Canon that hint that the speaker was part of the royal lines by references. Again it isn’t even a crazy claim. Wandering monks existed in the 5th century BCE and almost none of his work is unique, it was a continuation of a philosophy tradition.
That’s just not how it works.
“Your” entire argument is basically since humans accept bad evidence sometimes we must accept bad evidence all of the time. You can’t prove that your best buddy existed so you try to prove that since I am an imperfect thinker I have to be naive and accept you on faith about everything else. Sorry but that’s just not how it works.
I am looking forward to you being too embarrassed to mention the dead sea scrolls in your next comment. Really looking forward to it. Don’t worry, I will remind you ;)
Is something true because the majority says that it is true or because it is true?
This is pseudo-skeptical nonsense. These scholars have done the research and digging into sources and have the evidence that Jesus, the man, existed in the time that the gospels Bible describes. Until you have evidence that either disproves his existence or disproves all the historical records, this is contrarian nonsense with no basis in how historical research is done.
hese scholars have done the research and digging into sources and have the evidence that Jesus, the man, existed in the time that the gospels Bible describes.
That is untrue. The consensus that he likely existed isn’t founded on any contemporary evidence, because there is none. They assume he existed from events and sources that all stems from a period after he purportedly died.
The fact that there isn’t any contemporary evidence is an indisputable fact, acknowledged by the historians who believe that Jesus existed as well.
You want a citation that there is no evidence? Isnt this reversing the burden of proof? Claims require evidence, lack of evidence is not something that has to be demonstrated.
Well a good place to start is the citations at the bottom of the Wikipedia page on the historic figure of Jesus I know many others have posted and you are quite conveniently ignoring. After that it’s probably lots of googling and going to libraries and archives to find the information you’re looking for.
And you sound like you are comparing medical science to the bible.
I am fully vaxxed and boosted, my wife and kids are fully vaxxed and boosted. When the new booster comes out we will all be getting that one. I also make sure the entire family has the flu shot each year. Vaccines are freaken awesome.
Now, do you want to present evidence for the historical Jesus or do you want to try another personal attack? I have a receding hairline you can poke fun at that if you want. Me personally I would rather discuss historical truths instead of the personal flaws of people in a debate.
Thank you. We know that Mohammed existed, yet I don’t believe that an angel came to him with the words of the Quran, and I don’t believe in islam. Most scholars agree that Jesus existed, so it feels counter productive to try to assert that he didn’t exist. His existence is not a threat to my worldview, and besides, I follow the truth wherever it leads, not just where it’s convenient.
Is something true because the majority says that it is true or because it is true?
I do as well and I am still waiting for the evidence that he wasn’t a myth.
Consensus does matter when it’s a consensus of experts in a specific field. When I look at evolution, I follow the consensus of evolutionary biologists. When I look at the historicity of Jesus, I follow the consensus of historical scholars who study that era. I’m not an expert myself, so I have to trust someone else. I think that’s true for everyone outside of their expertise.
Plus I would probably agree with you that if a “scholar” believes that Jesus did miracles, I wouldn’t trust that scholar.
All I’m saying is that most likely, some guy named Joshua was baptised and crucified, and in between probably did some preaching that inspired a religion. Given that this is the consensus view by experts on the subject, the onus is on others to provide evidence that this isn’t the case. But acknowledging that this is the case doesn’t threaten my belief in materialism.
Can experts be wrong, yes or no?
We have evidence of evolution. Evidence that you can gain access to and verify for yourself. Frankly this is theist logic right here. The consensus of people who have studied the Bible is that Jesus was the literal son of god. Do you follow that consensus as well or only the ones that support your view?
You trust, I will verify. Which one of us is being a better skeptic here, the person who puts faith in others to tell them what happened or the person looking at the actual evidence?
I am a specialized worker and if you came to my work I can show you exactly the evidence that went into every single decision I made. There is no magic, nothing up my sleeve, no demands of trust. Just evidence.
But the ones that confirmed what you already believed you would trust and not verify? Do you know what expert shopping is?
What evidence did you use to make that determination?
Again. I am not interested in consensus, I am interested in what is true.
In that case every atheist should give up now because the consensus is that there is a god and it is up to us to disprove it, which we can’t do. The burder of proof is always on the person making the claim how common the claim is does not remove that burden.
Alright? Does that make the claim true?
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Simply because we lack proper primary sources concerning Jesus from during his lifetime does not mean that he never existed. Additionally, those who would care most about the existence of Jesus couldn’t care less about historical proof; they’ve already accepted everything on faith. You are free to be technically correct (the best kind of correct), but it’s a meaningless hill to die on.
Very well. You must believe in ghosts.
It also means that we can’t assert that he did. We do have evidence however that he didn’t exist. The accounts all differ and are convenient for those spreading it. So while I can’t disprove him or ghosts I can point to the people making money off ghost hunting shows.
If you mean modern people: Just because other people have a low bar doesn’t mean we have to.
If you mean people at the time: that is convenient. Suspiciously so.
I disagree.
Bro you should sue whatever educational institution you went to. They fucking duped you lmao
You are in a bad spot here.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_criticism
It doesn’t even take that long to find credible sources to demonstrate that denying the historicity of Jesus is the fringe theory.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
This is a meaningless hill to die on. You are simply wrong and you should move on to things that are actually valuable.
Edit: and the first comment even linked how you are wrong and you still want to fight this battle???
Right so you will be producing that historical evidence when exactly?
I already provided evidence for my position. If you would like to provide references that refute the Wikipedia pages on these topics I will be happy to read them.
I am pretty hardcore atheist and I have a huge bias against Christianity. But you are either taking your bias too far or ignoring evidence.
Which is ironic because you’re making your belief more important than the existing evidence.
Please present your evidence. On my side I have a century of textual analysis that shows that everyone involved in the documentation process was a liar, as well as legendary figures such as William Tell, John Frumm, and Ned Lud.
Do you mean all of the writings that included him? The Dead Sea scrolls they found even disparaged his name. Regardless of my desire to believe he didn’t exist, it is unlikely that people made him up at that time, then had random people talk and write about him.
By your standards, Alexander the Great did not exist, Socrates was a dream, and Siddartha Guatama was a fable.
That’s just not how it works.
Hey still waiting for you to show me the part of the Dead Sea Scrolls that mention Jesus. You weren’t lying about your god were you? Hehehe
Oh really the dead sea scrolls mention Jesus of Nazareth? Please inform me. What did you find in the scrolls that mentions him?
This is going to be so amusing.
You mean the way people did with Ned Ludd going so far as to write letters claiming to be him? Or the way they did with John Frumm? Or William Tell? In any case we don’t actually need that to happen. Of the 27 books of the OT 23 follow the traditions of St. Paul directly. A man who admitted that he never once saw Jesus. The remaining borrowed from Paul and a theoretically community (no evidence for) founded by James. We don’t need random people to do it. We have a charismatic well spoken leader who spoke of his visions.
You don’t know what my standards are. You are assuming not asking. Also we have a physical inscription written contemporary about the man from a disinterested party.
I wonder what blog you are copying now. He could have been but the claim of the man is ordinary so it unlikely to be a forgery. Besides the stories of him were written for an audience that knew him and no one is recorded objecting.
You really should cite the blog you are copying and posting from. We have some evidence that he existed. Since we have the Sangha and that shows signs of having one person creating it. We have relics such as the tree sapling of his tree. We have references in the Pali Canon that hint that the speaker was part of the royal lines by references. Again it isn’t even a crazy claim. Wandering monks existed in the 5th century BCE and almost none of his work is unique, it was a continuation of a philosophy tradition.
“Your” entire argument is basically since humans accept bad evidence sometimes we must accept bad evidence all of the time. You can’t prove that your best buddy existed so you try to prove that since I am an imperfect thinker I have to be naive and accept you on faith about everything else. Sorry but that’s just not how it works.
I am looking forward to you being too embarrassed to mention the dead sea scrolls in your next comment. Really looking forward to it. Don’t worry, I will remind you ;)
This is pseudo-skeptical nonsense. These scholars have done the research and digging into sources and have the evidence that Jesus, the man, existed in the time that the gospels Bible describes. Until you have evidence that either disproves his existence or disproves all the historical records, this is contrarian nonsense with no basis in how historical research is done.
That is untrue. The consensus that he likely existed isn’t founded on any contemporary evidence, because there is none. They assume he existed from events and sources that all stems from a period after he purportedly died.
The fact that there isn’t any contemporary evidence is an indisputable fact, acknowledged by the historians who believe that Jesus existed as well.
Citation needed.
You want a citation that there is no evidence? Isnt this reversing the burden of proof? Claims require evidence, lack of evidence is not something that has to be demonstrated.
May I see those historical records? May I see even one?
Well a good place to start is the citations at the bottom of the Wikipedia page on the historic figure of Jesus I know many others have posted and you are quite conveniently ignoring. After that it’s probably lots of googling and going to libraries and archives to find the information you’re looking for.
How is that contemporary evidence coming along?
You sound like an anti vaxxer
And you sound like you are comparing medical science to the bible.
I am fully vaxxed and boosted, my wife and kids are fully vaxxed and boosted. When the new booster comes out we will all be getting that one. I also make sure the entire family has the flu shot each year. Vaccines are freaken awesome.
Now, do you want to present evidence for the historical Jesus or do you want to try another personal attack? I have a receding hairline you can poke fun at that if you want. Me personally I would rather discuss historical truths instead of the personal flaws of people in a debate.
Are you okay?
Doing fine. Want to mention my vaccination records again?