President Biden seems nervous about sealing a deal that would improve the health and quality of life of millions of Americans through a stricter rule on truck emissions.
There is still last mile/miles concerns. Not every grocer can have a rail spur, but it can be serviced by a local fleet of electric trucks. The ultimate solution is a mix of various electrified transport.
Freight trolly has been a thing and is still used in some places. Between trains, freight trolly, and cargo bikes you could cover basically all urban use cases and most rural use cases.
Logistics predatss cars and trucks by quite a bit, the last hundred years has been an aboration masquerading as the norm. Those old solutions can be brought back.
I’m curious what you think the energy density needs to be for it to be viable and why? The way I see it energy density is a very minor factor for this equation but I’m curious to hear your explanation.
Are there any long haul electric trucks currently in widespread use? No, there really aren’t. Batteries are the reason. If it were economically viable we would see long haul electric trucks. Major truck manufactures make electric trucks. Kennworth and Peterbilt, the two biggest truck manufactures in the united states have electric truck models, and they are only their short haul models. Battery electric trucks are fine for delivery vans, and last mile delivery applications. But long haul trucks do not work with batteries. If these truck makers thought long haul trucks were viable they would make them. They have the technology to do battery trucks.
The technology to do zero emission long haul overland freight already exists. Governments should spend money on that instead of praying that batteries eventually become good enough to maintain the status quo.
I like trains and I’m not American. You brought up energy density as the factor preventing long haul. Please don’t appeal to authority as the argument but rather state what you think the energy density needs to be and why to make electric long haul viable.
The specific energy of batteries are currently an order of magnitude less than diesel. This is not a problem that is going to be solved by a slightly improved battery. The weight of batteries needed to carry long haul cargo makes it a non-starter.
This is also true for cars, but electric cars are viable even though its the same comparison between energy density. Would you be willing to have this conversation with actual calculations and specified arguments regarding the numbers?
So delivering single containers with rail is just a nightmare and much much easier done with a truck.
Delivering a single person by train is also stupid, but in a lot of places there are enough people making similar journeys that having a train does make sense. The same can be applied to freight.
Replacing every truck with an electric one would be an environmental disaster. More freight needs to be moved by rail, and the trucks that we still need should be electric.
Is that the most recent picture of a turntable you could find? Because you might’ve noticed that they aren’t around very much anymore, because these days trains can just go in both directions.
It should have been a rail yard, but you can not see through the cargo are cars. Hence you would need two locos on both ends to quickly turn around the train, as long as you can not see backwards.
You’re straw-manning me because my argument was specifically about long haul trucking. Short haul trucks can be electrified. This is why both Kennworth and Peterbult have short haul electric trucks that they sell and you can buy right now. There is currently is no manufacturer currently selling electric trucks with a sleeper cab in the US.
In the US, most long haul freight is carried by trucks. Freight rail exists but its market share has been dwindling for decades, and none of it is electrified. Electrifying all trucks in the US, as advocated by the article is non-viable. Long haul freight should be handled by rail instead of trucks, because that is a technology that exists and can be built.
In a train a single train driver can transport a hundred containers. In a truck it is one. Similar story for other types of freight. At the same time electric trains are incredibly efficient, do not need recharging and are a common well understood technology. So you already have economy of scale for electric trains, whereas hydrogen trucks are extremely rarer.
The only situation hydrogen trucks are better then trains, is transporting a bit of cargo to a very remote location.
Electrifying the trucks will not solve the problem. Batteries don’t have the energy density to work for long haul trucks.
Zero emissions long haul freight is a solved problem. Electrified rail. It just needs to be built.
Governments are continuing to subsidize trucks instead of building the solution that already exists.
There is still last mile/miles concerns. Not every grocer can have a rail spur, but it can be serviced by a local fleet of electric trucks. The ultimate solution is a mix of various electrified transport.
Freight trolly has been a thing and is still used in some places. Between trains, freight trolly, and cargo bikes you could cover basically all urban use cases and most rural use cases.
Logistics predatss cars and trucks by quite a bit, the last hundred years has been an aboration masquerading as the norm. Those old solutions can be brought back.
https://insideevs.com/news/686339/pepsico-tesla-semi-545-mile-range-test/
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/08/tech/virgin-hyperloop-passengers/index.html
I’m curious what you think the energy density needs to be for it to be viable and why? The way I see it energy density is a very minor factor for this equation but I’m curious to hear your explanation.
Are there any long haul electric trucks currently in widespread use? No, there really aren’t. Batteries are the reason. If it were economically viable we would see long haul electric trucks. Major truck manufactures make electric trucks. Kennworth and Peterbilt, the two biggest truck manufactures in the united states have electric truck models, and they are only their short haul models. Battery electric trucks are fine for delivery vans, and last mile delivery applications. But long haul trucks do not work with batteries. If these truck makers thought long haul trucks were viable they would make them. They have the technology to do battery trucks.
The technology to do zero emission long haul overland freight already exists. Governments should spend money on that instead of praying that batteries eventually become good enough to maintain the status quo.
I like trains and I’m not American. You brought up energy density as the factor preventing long haul. Please don’t appeal to authority as the argument but rather state what you think the energy density needs to be and why to make electric long haul viable.
The specific energy of batteries are currently an order of magnitude less than diesel. This is not a problem that is going to be solved by a slightly improved battery. The weight of batteries needed to carry long haul cargo makes it a non-starter.
This is also true for cars, but electric cars are viable even though its the same comparison between energy density. Would you be willing to have this conversation with actual calculations and specified arguments regarding the numbers?
I’ll do the calculations if you pay my consultancy fee.
How about we both do the calculations and we cancel each others consultant fees?
The energy density isn’t a problem. Problem is fine dust.
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Delivering a single person by train is also stupid, but in a lot of places there are enough people making similar journeys that having a train does make sense. The same can be applied to freight.
Replacing every truck with an electric one would be an environmental disaster. More freight needs to be moved by rail, and the trucks that we still need should be electric.
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And my content doesn’t go against that. Just electrifying trucks won’t solve the problem. We need fewer trucks.
I appreciate you disclosing that you’re making a strawman argument at the very beginning. Very considerate.
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Is that the most recent picture of a turntable you could find? Because you might’ve noticed that they aren’t around very much anymore, because these days trains can just go in both directions.
It should have been a rail yard, but you can not see through the cargo are cars. Hence you would need two locos on both ends to quickly turn around the train, as long as you can not see backwards.
Or just one extra track to move your loco to the other end.
You’re straw-manning me because my argument was specifically about long haul trucking. Short haul trucks can be electrified. This is why both Kennworth and Peterbult have short haul electric trucks that they sell and you can buy right now. There is currently is no manufacturer currently selling electric trucks with a sleeper cab in the US.
In the US, most long haul freight is carried by trucks. Freight rail exists but its market share has been dwindling for decades, and none of it is electrified. Electrifying all trucks in the US, as advocated by the article is non-viable. Long haul freight should be handled by rail instead of trucks, because that is a technology that exists and can be built.
When you say:
I understood:
The article is about banning trucks the sale of fossil fuel trucks by 2030, so that is imho extremly easy to missunderstand.
You want hydrogen trucks for this. It actually has the energy density needed.
You actually want hydrogen trucks. It actually has the energy density needed.
In a train a single train driver can transport a hundred containers. In a truck it is one. Similar story for other types of freight. At the same time electric trains are incredibly efficient, do not need recharging and are a common well understood technology. So you already have economy of scale for electric trains, whereas hydrogen trucks are extremely rarer.
The only situation hydrogen trucks are better then trains, is transporting a bit of cargo to a very remote location.
Except you have to have overhead powerlines. Not feasible in every location. Otherwise, your trains are diesel powered.