An algorithm does nothing to stop your choice. I’d hazard I have very similar viewing habits and YT suggestions. I bust out of it regularly though. Because it just feeds me the same stuff constantly. You can do that any time. It’s like the Jerryboree, you’re always allowed to leave if you want. Implying algorithms are echo chambers. Is like asserting that the jerryborres are like Auschwitz. It’s silly.
The 8 o’clock news was a much bigger echo chamber than YouTube or Instagram ever were. In fact you’ve literally described YouTube shattering a classic Echo chamber in your life and are lamenting it. How ironic. My parents watch a lot of YouTube these days too. Nothing I’d watch. But they watch together because of shared interests. If you want to share more with your wife/family etc. Put some effort into it. Find something you all like, and make a point to watch it together. No algorithm is stopping you.
Don’t get me wrong. Algorithms can absolutely exacerbate and help create Echo chambers. But they aren’t Echo Chambers themselves. You could choose to go on a Prager U watching binge on YouTube tomorrow. And soil your suggestions for months or years to come. You won’t. But you could. The fact that the algorithm is feeding you stuff that it knows you’ll engage with. You know, the sort of thing you’d be doing yourself without the algorithm helping you. Doesn’t make it an echo chamber.
There are two types of echo chambers. Those created from lack of access to information. And those we create for ourselves. Algorithms need not apply.
Hmm, I’m not convinced. Sure it’s not technically preventing me from accessing information. But come on, we all know 90% of people prefer the convenience and won’t click through 5 pages to get to that specific innormation. They’ll just scroll by and fall victim to it. The rest also does, albeit to a lesser degree.
And I’ve been on YouTube when it used to show exactly the subscription feeds… And that time is long gone. I’m subscribed to a few channels that are not “advertiser friendly”. And they almost never show up anywhere. Once a month I maybe remember that I haven’t seen a video in a while and I check out their channel manually and I’ve missed 2 videos… What else am I missing out on? How’s that not filtering and shaping my perspective?
And the 8 o’clock news is kind of my point. That’s an example of mass media. Everyone get’s the same info. People can talk, they have the same info available. That’s the opposite of different echo chambers. It won’t be your uncle who got radicalized into thinking immigrants are the most pressing issues and you being radicalized to think gender equality is the most pressing issue in society. Of course that’s not absolute, people have always had different interests and other sources available, too. And one big echo chamber has never been great either. Back in the day I learnt a lot less about China or other parts of the world than I do today.
I’m not sure if the current situation is good however. I get lots of oppinions about Putin and Israel and Palestine. And still almost zero about Africa or my neighbor countries. That bias is still there. So it also didn’t solve that issue.
I wonder how people believe they’re not part of the scheme. I mean, are you curating your content yourself? Putting in the hours of work each day to get the unbiased perspective? Do you read about all of the countries and different people that are beyond your perspective and interest and factor them in? Do you also read about the local news and the struggles of the youth center nextdoor that is about to get closed? If yes, I’d like to know how you do it, because I’d like to have that available, too. But I’m neither a journalist nor do I have all day to read background articles and write all the news myself… And if not - you’re getting your perspective of the world delivered to you. Shaped by somebody else. If you’re using YouTube’s recommendations or Instagram or TikTok… That’s done by an algorithm. If you’re watching the news or reading a newspaper that’s maybe by some journalists. But all of that is still a filter bubble. And if it’s an algorithm it’s designed to please you and keep you engaged and scrolling. The echo chamber so to say… If it’s a journalist, they’re technically supposed to be neutral. I guess that doesn’t work in the US either, but there are still proper journalists around. It’s not either, or… Both approaches have issues, some of them are different. But the things that are designed to foster individual echo chambers… are the recommendation algorithms.
(And I also wouldn’t like to return to the old times… If that’s not clear from my writing… I think that’s not been great, either.)
The fact that you choose to eat ho-hos and ding dongs does not mean that you live in a food desert. But if you live in a food desert. You might not have anything better than Ho Hos and ding dongs to eat. And if the grocery store determines that they can boost their business by lining the front shelves with Ho Hos and ding dongs. And you come in but never go past those shelves to get to the health foods and produce behind. Is that the grocery stores fault or is it yours? This is all analogous.
We need to decide if we’re talking about how bad a lot of these algorithms are or how bad Echo Chambers are. Believe me I think YouTube’s algorithm sucks as far as seeing what I really want to see. It generally suggests okay things. But I do often have to go digging through my subscriptions to find even recent videos from people that I would rather see. Again that’s not an echo chamber though.
The algorithm is simply putting generally tolerable mass-produced pablum to keep me watching forever in view. Not prioritizing what I really want. But I can still get to what I really want even if I have to walk past those first couple shelves. Honestly, anymore on YouTube I rush past the first few shelves and go directly to my subscription only feed. And look through that and go through and pick out the stuff that I want to watch. Then when I’ve seen everything I really want to watch. I might go to the suggestion feed and pull up something it has there. There’s no one there telling me I can’t or shouldn’t do that or blocking my access.
I don’t think you get what I’m trying to say. You don’t need to block anything to shape someone’s view of the world. Just tell them lies. Feed them one-sided info all day. Make opposing things inconvenient to access. No need to block or restrict anything, it’ll work anyways. Sure, “theoretically” everyone can look it up. Or go to the library and read a book on history. “Theoretically” they could do. But “in theory” is not enough if it never happens.
You’re bound to watch more if the stuff that’s easily available to you. And less of the stuff that’s unconvenient. Thus shaping the knowledge that gets accumulated in your brain.
And you seem to be under the impression that they’re deliberately trying to influence your views. That’s not the case. They just want you to keep watching. They don’t mind if you consume leftist or alt-right content. But to achieve that, they’re trying to recommend something to you you might like to watch. If you’ve watched Jordan Peterson all day, you’ll get more of that because obviously you like it. Hence confining you more into your individual echo chamber. And that’s not because they like Jordan Peterson… They just want to sell ads. And that’s the way to do it.
And it’s yet more perfiduous: If you want to exploit human psychology as a platform provider, you occasionaly also show your users content they don’t like… That gives them the false impression that it’s not just a small bubble. The illusion of choice. And it’ll get you more… It’s something that your users can get angry about or pick on. It’ll raise emotions, get them even more engaged. And it’ll be yet more profitable. And as it turns out it’s a known fact that the big tech companies hire psychologists. And some more shady companies have been proven to make their products addictive by such means.
Again: They don’t exactly want to impress any specific political view on you. It’s just how they make more money. And the rest is an unintended side-effect. But it has these consequences, regardless.
That friend. Is framing. Not an echo chamber. Framing can amplify Echo Chambers absolutely. But it’s not the same thing. It is something we all do to an extent and should be aware of. We all frame things in terms of what we know, or even how we wish they would be.
Most things in life especially in America have a heavy right-wing fash friendly framing. That’s not arguable. Just a fact of the last 100 years. Which is why when most people realistically only had the 8:00 news it was such an Insidious and effective Echo chamber. They constantly echoed the same talking points. With the same fash friendly framing. We were the heroes delivering freedom against the godless communists etc. Was that ever really true? You might be able to make a specious argument or two. But it’s not factual on the face of it. Note this is not a defense of ML/Stalinism/Maoism or tankies. They’re as big a problem as capitalists realistically.
Florida, arguably an echo chamber by many metrics. They’re trying to restricted peoples access to information and violate their first amendment rights. Twitter, absolutely an echo chamber. They’re banning lefties at the drop of a hat temp/perm/shadow. Replatforming deservedly permabanned rightwing ghouls. With an egoist in a khole paying and promoting hate speech. YouTube, their algorithm sucks. But as much as I dislike that they allow propaganda etc like daily wire etc. They also allow propaganda like second thought which I also dislike. They certainly aren’t perfect. But not the same thing.
That’s right. I mean the point is you end up with an information stream that is framed to appease you. And I end up with info that is framed to appease me. Neither of us necessarily gets “the truth”. (And it’s a skewed perspective and self-reinforcing. Mind that I’m talking about the causality of the dynamics, not identity of certain terms.)
I agree with the perspective on America. I’m afraid we’re here in some European countries could be headed in the same direction. At least that’s what I think when I see our conservatist politicians invite scumbags like Ron DeSantis over. Or repeat their talking points. And the far-right is on the rise everywhere I look.
Our political system is vastly different however. The wider spectrum and the availability of more than two parties who actually get voted into parliament. Precedent of new parties forming every now and then and rising to like 20% over time. And occasionally they spend their days deciding useful stuff.
But we also have some of the same dynamics. People who wish it were the old times. Asking for simple truths. Wanting capitalism to solve everything. People making up their subjective reality instead of looking at objective facts.
I sometimes try to talk to random people who aren’t part of my own echo chamber. And from my own experience, the vast majority seems to be nice and caring people. Everyone has their own struggles in life but they’re open and liberal enough to grant the same freedom to their neighbours. But occasionally I meet one of the minority of idiots who think climate change and vaccines are a hoax, immigrants are the most important issue and giving equal opportunity to women is a mistake. And I’m always dumbfounded by that and not sure which world they’re living in. I’ve traveled and saw the glaciers in Switzerland or what’s left of them. I read the news and how Spain is struggling with serious droughts. Affecting the price of vegetables in my supermarket severely. And I can’t get to work (properly) because the train system is beat-up after Germany has been stingy with investing money for decades. It’s kind of whataboutism from my side, but I can’t relate at all why we should focus on immigrants or more strict laws concerning gender, now. And I don’t see how capitalism is going to solve any of that, because it’s what ruined the train system in the first place. And we can look at the USA and see that this kind of capitalism also has negative effects on infrastructure, healthcare etc. Very severely in the case of healthcare for example. And I’m not a communist or tankie at all, I think that’s even worse and will also take away our freedom. I think we already have the answer to that problem and it’s social market economy. Maybe eco-social if you will. But we need individual freedom and some degree of capitalism. Just not without any limits. The solution is neither of the extremes. And we need to agree on facts and objective reality and base our decision on science and facts, not emotions and tribalism.
And that’s kind of why I worry that the post-factual world is a huge problem for society. And we need to address it. I think the internet is the single best tool we ever had to enlighten us. But not everything in it is fine and dandy.
However, I don’t think the political situation is caused by the internet or anything like that. It’s waging there too, but politics is complicated. And some people just like autocracy more than democracy.
An algorithm does nothing to stop your choice. I’d hazard I have very similar viewing habits and YT suggestions. I bust out of it regularly though. Because it just feeds me the same stuff constantly. You can do that any time. It’s like the Jerryboree, you’re always allowed to leave if you want. Implying algorithms are echo chambers. Is like asserting that the jerryborres are like Auschwitz. It’s silly.
The 8 o’clock news was a much bigger echo chamber than YouTube or Instagram ever were. In fact you’ve literally described YouTube shattering a classic Echo chamber in your life and are lamenting it. How ironic. My parents watch a lot of YouTube these days too. Nothing I’d watch. But they watch together because of shared interests. If you want to share more with your wife/family etc. Put some effort into it. Find something you all like, and make a point to watch it together. No algorithm is stopping you.
Don’t get me wrong. Algorithms can absolutely exacerbate and help create Echo chambers. But they aren’t Echo Chambers themselves. You could choose to go on a Prager U watching binge on YouTube tomorrow. And soil your suggestions for months or years to come. You won’t. But you could. The fact that the algorithm is feeding you stuff that it knows you’ll engage with. You know, the sort of thing you’d be doing yourself without the algorithm helping you. Doesn’t make it an echo chamber.
There are two types of echo chambers. Those created from lack of access to information. And those we create for ourselves. Algorithms need not apply.
Hmm, I’m not convinced. Sure it’s not technically preventing me from accessing information. But come on, we all know 90% of people prefer the convenience and won’t click through 5 pages to get to that specific innormation. They’ll just scroll by and fall victim to it. The rest also does, albeit to a lesser degree.
And I’ve been on YouTube when it used to show exactly the subscription feeds… And that time is long gone. I’m subscribed to a few channels that are not “advertiser friendly”. And they almost never show up anywhere. Once a month I maybe remember that I haven’t seen a video in a while and I check out their channel manually and I’ve missed 2 videos… What else am I missing out on? How’s that not filtering and shaping my perspective?
And the 8 o’clock news is kind of my point. That’s an example of mass media. Everyone get’s the same info. People can talk, they have the same info available. That’s the opposite of different echo chambers. It won’t be your uncle who got radicalized into thinking immigrants are the most pressing issues and you being radicalized to think gender equality is the most pressing issue in society. Of course that’s not absolute, people have always had different interests and other sources available, too. And one big echo chamber has never been great either. Back in the day I learnt a lot less about China or other parts of the world than I do today.
I’m not sure if the current situation is good however. I get lots of oppinions about Putin and Israel and Palestine. And still almost zero about Africa or my neighbor countries. That bias is still there. So it also didn’t solve that issue.
I wonder how people believe they’re not part of the scheme. I mean, are you curating your content yourself? Putting in the hours of work each day to get the unbiased perspective? Do you read about all of the countries and different people that are beyond your perspective and interest and factor them in? Do you also read about the local news and the struggles of the youth center nextdoor that is about to get closed? If yes, I’d like to know how you do it, because I’d like to have that available, too. But I’m neither a journalist nor do I have all day to read background articles and write all the news myself… And if not - you’re getting your perspective of the world delivered to you. Shaped by somebody else. If you’re using YouTube’s recommendations or Instagram or TikTok… That’s done by an algorithm. If you’re watching the news or reading a newspaper that’s maybe by some journalists. But all of that is still a filter bubble. And if it’s an algorithm it’s designed to please you and keep you engaged and scrolling. The echo chamber so to say… If it’s a journalist, they’re technically supposed to be neutral. I guess that doesn’t work in the US either, but there are still proper journalists around. It’s not either, or… Both approaches have issues, some of them are different. But the things that are designed to foster individual echo chambers… are the recommendation algorithms.
(And I also wouldn’t like to return to the old times… If that’s not clear from my writing… I think that’s not been great, either.)
The fact that you choose to eat ho-hos and ding dongs does not mean that you live in a food desert. But if you live in a food desert. You might not have anything better than Ho Hos and ding dongs to eat. And if the grocery store determines that they can boost their business by lining the front shelves with Ho Hos and ding dongs. And you come in but never go past those shelves to get to the health foods and produce behind. Is that the grocery stores fault or is it yours? This is all analogous.
We need to decide if we’re talking about how bad a lot of these algorithms are or how bad Echo Chambers are. Believe me I think YouTube’s algorithm sucks as far as seeing what I really want to see. It generally suggests okay things. But I do often have to go digging through my subscriptions to find even recent videos from people that I would rather see. Again that’s not an echo chamber though.
The algorithm is simply putting generally tolerable mass-produced pablum to keep me watching forever in view. Not prioritizing what I really want. But I can still get to what I really want even if I have to walk past those first couple shelves. Honestly, anymore on YouTube I rush past the first few shelves and go directly to my subscription only feed. And look through that and go through and pick out the stuff that I want to watch. Then when I’ve seen everything I really want to watch. I might go to the suggestion feed and pull up something it has there. There’s no one there telling me I can’t or shouldn’t do that or blocking my access.
I don’t think you get what I’m trying to say. You don’t need to block anything to shape someone’s view of the world. Just tell them lies. Feed them one-sided info all day. Make opposing things inconvenient to access. No need to block or restrict anything, it’ll work anyways. Sure, “theoretically” everyone can look it up. Or go to the library and read a book on history. “Theoretically” they could do. But “in theory” is not enough if it never happens.
You’re bound to watch more if the stuff that’s easily available to you. And less of the stuff that’s unconvenient. Thus shaping the knowledge that gets accumulated in your brain.
And you seem to be under the impression that they’re deliberately trying to influence your views. That’s not the case. They just want you to keep watching. They don’t mind if you consume leftist or alt-right content. But to achieve that, they’re trying to recommend something to you you might like to watch. If you’ve watched Jordan Peterson all day, you’ll get more of that because obviously you like it. Hence confining you more into your individual echo chamber. And that’s not because they like Jordan Peterson… They just want to sell ads. And that’s the way to do it.
And it’s yet more perfiduous: If you want to exploit human psychology as a platform provider, you occasionaly also show your users content they don’t like… That gives them the false impression that it’s not just a small bubble. The illusion of choice. And it’ll get you more… It’s something that your users can get angry about or pick on. It’ll raise emotions, get them even more engaged. And it’ll be yet more profitable. And as it turns out it’s a known fact that the big tech companies hire psychologists. And some more shady companies have been proven to make their products addictive by such means.
Again: They don’t exactly want to impress any specific political view on you. It’s just how they make more money. And the rest is an unintended side-effect. But it has these consequences, regardless.
That friend. Is framing. Not an echo chamber. Framing can amplify Echo Chambers absolutely. But it’s not the same thing. It is something we all do to an extent and should be aware of. We all frame things in terms of what we know, or even how we wish they would be.
Most things in life especially in America have a heavy right-wing fash friendly framing. That’s not arguable. Just a fact of the last 100 years. Which is why when most people realistically only had the 8:00 news it was such an Insidious and effective Echo chamber. They constantly echoed the same talking points. With the same fash friendly framing. We were the heroes delivering freedom against the godless communists etc. Was that ever really true? You might be able to make a specious argument or two. But it’s not factual on the face of it. Note this is not a defense of ML/Stalinism/Maoism or tankies. They’re as big a problem as capitalists realistically.
Florida, arguably an echo chamber by many metrics. They’re trying to restricted peoples access to information and violate their first amendment rights. Twitter, absolutely an echo chamber. They’re banning lefties at the drop of a hat temp/perm/shadow. Replatforming deservedly permabanned rightwing ghouls. With an egoist in a khole paying and promoting hate speech. YouTube, their algorithm sucks. But as much as I dislike that they allow propaganda etc like daily wire etc. They also allow propaganda like second thought which I also dislike. They certainly aren’t perfect. But not the same thing.
That’s right. I mean the point is you end up with an information stream that is framed to appease you. And I end up with info that is framed to appease me. Neither of us necessarily gets “the truth”. (And it’s a skewed perspective and self-reinforcing. Mind that I’m talking about the causality of the dynamics, not identity of certain terms.)
I agree with the perspective on America. I’m afraid we’re here in some European countries could be headed in the same direction. At least that’s what I think when I see our conservatist politicians invite scumbags like Ron DeSantis over. Or repeat their talking points. And the far-right is on the rise everywhere I look.
Our political system is vastly different however. The wider spectrum and the availability of more than two parties who actually get voted into parliament. Precedent of new parties forming every now and then and rising to like 20% over time. And occasionally they spend their days deciding useful stuff.
But we also have some of the same dynamics. People who wish it were the old times. Asking for simple truths. Wanting capitalism to solve everything. People making up their subjective reality instead of looking at objective facts.
I sometimes try to talk to random people who aren’t part of my own echo chamber. And from my own experience, the vast majority seems to be nice and caring people. Everyone has their own struggles in life but they’re open and liberal enough to grant the same freedom to their neighbours. But occasionally I meet one of the minority of idiots who think climate change and vaccines are a hoax, immigrants are the most important issue and giving equal opportunity to women is a mistake. And I’m always dumbfounded by that and not sure which world they’re living in. I’ve traveled and saw the glaciers in Switzerland or what’s left of them. I read the news and how Spain is struggling with serious droughts. Affecting the price of vegetables in my supermarket severely. And I can’t get to work (properly) because the train system is beat-up after Germany has been stingy with investing money for decades. It’s kind of whataboutism from my side, but I can’t relate at all why we should focus on immigrants or more strict laws concerning gender, now. And I don’t see how capitalism is going to solve any of that, because it’s what ruined the train system in the first place. And we can look at the USA and see that this kind of capitalism also has negative effects on infrastructure, healthcare etc. Very severely in the case of healthcare for example. And I’m not a communist or tankie at all, I think that’s even worse and will also take away our freedom. I think we already have the answer to that problem and it’s social market economy. Maybe eco-social if you will. But we need individual freedom and some degree of capitalism. Just not without any limits. The solution is neither of the extremes. And we need to agree on facts and objective reality and base our decision on science and facts, not emotions and tribalism.
And that’s kind of why I worry that the post-factual world is a huge problem for society. And we need to address it. I think the internet is the single best tool we ever had to enlighten us. But not everything in it is fine and dandy.
However, I don’t think the political situation is caused by the internet or anything like that. It’s waging there too, but politics is complicated. And some people just like autocracy more than democracy.