Israel's prime minister and senior figures with the Palestinian group are wanted for war crimes.

Israel’s prime minister and senior figures with the Palestinian group are wanted for war crimes.

Archived version: https://archive.ph/xfGGI

  • Ghost33313@kbin.social
    45·
    6 months ago

    Then who orchestrated the attacks on only civilians? Hamas hurting civilians is nothing new. Both sides have been assholes long before this started. Everyone in the region would benefit from both parties being prosecuted.

    • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
      42·
      6 months ago

      Then who orchestrated the attacks on only civilians?

      They… didn’t? That’s exactly what I’m talking about. The attack had clear military objectives (taking hostages is morally grey but still not the kind of atrocity we’re talking about). At least as far as I know everything you’ll think of when you hear the words “Oct 7 Hamas atrocity” can be passed as, and probably is, spontaneous violence caused by the fact that Gazans hate Israelis’ guts rather than any orders from the top brass. Now I’m not denying general Hamas terror; the shootings and suicide bombings definitely happen, but in a court of law everything we’re saying right now about October 7th would be thrown out as speculation, because it is.

      • Ghost33313@kbin.social
        1·
        6 months ago

        would be thrown out as speculation, because it is.

        Not sure how hostages and deaths are speculative evidence. Also what were the military objectives you alluded to? I only heard about the terror attacks.

        • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
          2·
          6 months ago

          Not sure how hostages and deaths are speculative evidence.

          So let me address the deaths first. You can use those (the ones that can conclusively proven to be intentionally inflicted by Hamas forces, because it’s not all of them) to try foot soldiers and field commanders, people who were actually there. Not the guy at the very top who doesn’t even live in Gaza.

          About the hostages, they’re the only way for Hamas to get even some of their demands. Which sounds bad until you realize those demands are things like lifting/loosening the blockade, toning down the surveillance (the surveilance Israel does in Gaza would make East Germany blush), not airstrike Gaza every five minutes, etc etc. It’s not pretty, but the hostages are very much a case of blame the game, not the player. Now if the ICC decides to prosecute for those I guess they can be traced back to Sinwar.

          So the military goals are:

          1-Actually attacking Israeli forces. Hamas attacked at least one (I don’t know the number) Israeli military base on October 7th.

          2-Taking hostages yo Gaza can actually survive after the attack (and so they can hopefully get Israel to starve them less).

          3-Delay Saudi Arabian naturalization. Or, in other words, prevent Saudi Arabia from selling out the Palestinian cause like everyone else did.

      • eleventy_7@kbin.social
        12·
        6 months ago

        You’re right that it is possible that Hamas didn’t intend for the scale of civilian casualties that were seen on Oct. 7th, but even if that’s true then they are still responsible for not keeping their people from commiting said spontaneous violence. As the leaders of a militant faction, like a regular military they are responsible for training their soldiers (or equivalent) and keeping them in line during operations.

        I’m actually more on the Frantz fannon school of thought about the necessity of violence against oppressors to overthrow colonial regimes, so I’m more amenable to hamas’ plight than most I think, but Oct. 7th is still pretty indefensible.

        Having said all that, to make clear, I’m not defending Israel or their retributive genocide. Fuck them. But I don’t think we should go easy on Hamas’ war crimes either, so I don’t think the ICC is really ‘both-sides’-ing in this case.

        • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
          2·
          6 months ago

          As the leaders of a militant faction, like a regular military they are responsible for training their soldiers (or equivalent) and keeping them in line during operations.

          Does that responsibility fall on the top leaders or field commanders though? I can definitely see the argument that Hamas leadership is too easy on atrocities in general having legal ground, but how far up the ladder can you take that? Not trying to defend them or saying we should go easy on them here, don’t get me wrong, but at least from an international law context I think Sinwar’s hands are pretty clean?

          • eleventy_7@kbin.social
            11·
            6 months ago

            I’m no expert on international law, but from what I’ve seen for more isolated incidents generally it’s those who commit the crime that would be held responsible. The scale and consistency of civilian death pretty much rule that out though, which leaves either intentional orders to kill civilians (more on this later), or institutional failures to properly reign in soldiers and train them to not kill civilians. either way, that puts the onus higher up the chain of command.

            If we assume that civilian death wasn’t intended by top brass, there is still a huge fuckup somewhere in the mix if somewhere near half of all those killed were non-targets of the operation. Again, with the scale of this massacre, I can’t imagine it not being a categorical failure of command all the way up in allowing this to happen.

            If we assume it was intentional, well then Hamas ordered the killing of hundreds of civilians. that’s pretty cut and dry not cool in the ICC’s books.

            The real problem I think is one of perspective. I believe that from the perspective of Hamas, any and all Israelis are themselves combatants, as settler colonialists continuing the project of eradicating the land of Palestine. There is truth to this, but then from that perspective there are no civilians in Israel. Once you come to this conclusion, there isn’t a lot that can’t be justified.

            From that perspective, the difference between killing Israeli soldiers and destroying military targets vs killing Israeli citizens and burning down whole city blocks isn’t as significant as the ICC or (I assume) you or I deem it to be. It’s more like targeting barracks than harming non-combatants; something like “Sure, maybe they aren’t armed and attacking right now, but they are still the enemy and pose a threat. They chose to be part of this conflict by settling here”.

            Like I mentioned, there is some truth to this logic. Israeli settlers, especially near Gaza and in the west bank, are complicit in the acts of their government and are continuing the colonial project. Does this justify their indiscriminate murder? I don’t believe it does.

            So, in summary, I believe the massacres were planned, or at least allowed by hamas’ strategy. Even if it wasn’t intentional, that it was allowed to happen still incriminates most of not all of the decision-making and on-the-ground commanding portions of the organization. But that’s just my 2 cents.

            Edit: spelling