• MangoCats
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    21 hours ago

    Except credit changes the math on that significantly. You aren’t constrained by your income, but by your risk of default (and even then… glances 2008-ward) Then you can afford to buy more by paying a higher interest rate.

    That has nothing to do with what someone is willing to pay, it is everything about what someone is able to pay. Plenty of people are willing to mortgage their future for something they want now but have no current liquid assets to purchase it with.

    “Willingly” is doing a lot of lifting, given the degree to which fraud, extortion, and price gouging play a roll in the national economy.

    Fraud is all about deceiving the mark into willingly handing over assets. Extortion isn’t involved in free market transactions.

    Even price gouging, particularly in the field of end stage medical care, is a sort of willing payment. You ask a dying person: are you willing to mortgage your children’s assets in order to maybe live a little longer? The answer is all too often: yes, and the children often willingly sign up out of sympathy for their dying parents.

    Is that extortion? Sort of, but they always have the option to just let MeeMaw suffer in pain and die, instead of paying the hospital $300K to make her more comfortable.

    Promotion (and deception and intimidation) drives sales. They create the illusion of scarcity and transform luxury into necessity.

    I’m not so familiar with promotion that creates the illusion of scarcity. I mean, in Real Estate it’s not an illusion, there is only one property in the entire Universe like the one under consideration… High pressure sales is often driving the “don’t think, act now, close the deal ASAP” aspect of things. But most promotion for things like Coca Cola, or new cars, provides the marketing aspect of “easy to obtain, just go to your local dealer and pick one up, TODAY!”

    They add perceived value among the unwitting and create implicit value through absence of harm.

    Yes, and that perceived value is what provides willing consumers anxious to exchange their fungible currency for the goods. Evaluation of “actual value” is an impossible thing, it is like beauty: in the eye of the beholder. For some, an $800 T-shirt is a “great value” because of how it makes them feel to wear it, others’ perception of them wearing it, etc. That T-shirt might only wash once before falling to rags, but for those who are spending $800 on a T-shirt, they probably don’t care - they can buy more different ones at any time. Does that make them unwitting, or just obscenely wealthy in comparison to most people?

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      8 hours ago

      That has nothing to do with what someone is willing to pay

      It has to do with what one is capable of paying, which plays into willingness.

      Extortion isn’t involved in free market transactions.

      Extortion is an extension of monopoly pricing. If you can threaten someone’s access to a necessary good/service, then you are functionally extorting them.

      That’s before you get into cartelization, vexatious litigation, and other hostile business practices

      Plenty of people are willing to mortgage their future for something they want now but have no current liquid assets to purchase it with.

      As an alternative to renting in a hostile rental environment sure.

      But offer them a real supply of public at-cost housing, and I think you’ll discover quite a few people don’t want that mortgage after all.

      Even price gouging, particularly in the field of end stage medical care, is a sort of willing payment.

      If you need to threaten someone’s health or safety to extract payment, it isn’t willing.

      I’m not so familiar with promotion that creates the illusion of scarcity

      :-/

      Okay, sure.

      • MangoCats
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        3 hours ago

        But offer them a real supply of public at-cost housing, and I think you’ll discover quite a few people don’t want that mortgage after all.

        But what is the cost of housing?

        Where do the materials come from to build the housing? Are those suppliers allowed to make a profit? And their suppliers?

        Where does the labor come from to build the housing? Are the laborers paid by the job or by the hour?

        And the land for this housing, is that obtained from the free market? Anybody price gouging there, or taking kickbacks?

        Once this housing is built, it transforms from “cost” to whatever the market is willing to pay. If the land was downtown, on high bluff riverfront, “at cost” for free via eminent domain, one would assume that housing will become quite a bit more valuable than it cost to build the moment it is made available to the open market. How do we protect this housing as “at cost”? Is it first come, first served? Life estates? Transferred to children, spouses, designated heirs?

        And, the opposite situation, when the public housing isn’t in a desirable area, and the residents don’t maintain the housing, who pays for the maintenance?

        Easy to hand-wave a solution, harder to make it fit in the real world. At least let’s try to be minimizing:

        extortion, cartelization, vexatious litigation, and other hostile business practices

        there’s far too much of that already.

        • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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          3 hours ago

          But what is the cost of housing?

          Land, labor, and materials.

          Where do the materials come from to build the housing?

          Via natural deposits of resources.

          Where does the labor come from to build the housing?

          Via expertise accumulated by individuals through education and practice.

          And the land for this housing, is that obtained from the free market?

          No. Primary accumulation happens when individuals occupy vacant real estate or through violent expulsion of existing residents.

          Once this housing is built, it transforms from “cost” to whatever the market is willing to pay.

          Again, no. That’s not how public housing is allocated or valued.

          And, the opposite situation, when the public housing isn’t in a desirable area, and the residents don’t maintain the housing, who pays for the maintenance?

          Areas become desireable through their improvement. Public housing transforms vacant real estate into a desirable place to live.

          On the flip side, residents do a poor job of maintaining housing when they lack the time, the expertise, the resources, and the energy to keep it up. This is not unique to public property by any stretch. Private homes also fall into disrepair when the owners lack upkeep skills or the money and time to provide proper maintenance. State and municipal governments pay enormous sums to affect “Slum Clearance” in order to evict and renovate low-income housing into property desirable for high-income investment. And federal governments subsidize the financial wing of real estate even more heavily.

          We’re happy to spend absurd GDP-buckling sums to financialize real estate to the benefit of a handful of magnets. Surely you can see the virtue in paying a fraction of these sums to mobilize a professional workforce capable of maintaining property at-cost.

          Easy to hand-wave a solution, harder to make it fit in the real world.

          It is exactly the opposite. Given the political authority and the financial resources of a major metropolitan city, providing at-cost housing and maintenance is downright trivial. But acquiring that political capital is the challenge, as you are fighting the economic propaganda of a thousand fiscal parasites who have all grown fat off privatization.