I absolutely will pick the no-tips place given a choice, but I take issue with that wording. Basically every business pays as little as possible, by design.
I would happily pay more for my meal if it meant I didn’t have to tip. The benefit we get from not tipping is marginal compared to the benefit restaurant owners get by not paying living wage. Not to mention it’s added stress to the actual people doing the work because they don’t even get the guarantee of a decent paycheck.
And there is a choice, you chose to perpetuate the system that grossly exploits the laborer, I choose to have minimal participation in such a system. Want to take a guess which of the two actually has a chance to fix the system?
…what? I’m saying they can always help it, they can always not go somewhere that expects tips. But if you would like to go somewhere that expects tips, you better fucking tip. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Don’t want to support that system? Don’t participate in it at all. Don’t just not participate in the part that costs you money. I don’t get why you’re lecturing me as if I defend tipping as a system.
But you are defending the system. You’re literally saying if you end up in a place that expects tipping then you should tip. What if you’re going out with a group and that group decides to go somewhere that expects tipping? Are you supposed to remove yourself from the group so you wouldn’t go into a place like that?
You can’t take this black and white stance where if you end up participating in this system you also have to perpetuate that system. Making the customer feel like they’re responsible for the livelihood of the staff is how this tipping culture is kept alive and that is exactly what you’re doing right now. You’re trying to claim we are responsible for their livelihood simply because we stepped into the restaurant and ate.
Show me exactly where I defended the system. Show me a single line.
I said if you don’t want tipping to continue, you can’t support restaurants that tip. If you go to a restaurant that expects tips and you don’t tip, you are keeping them in business while screwing over the person working. It is the worst of all worlds. In that scenario you are perpetuating the system by participating in it. It’s a choice.
Show me exactly where I defended the system. Show me a single line.
You’re just leaving yourself a convenient back door to not tip while benefitting from tipping culture.
Trying to guilt people into tipping
But if you would like to go somewhere that expects tips, you better fucking tip
Literally telling people to tip.
If you go to a restaurant that expects tips and you don’t tip, you are keeping them in business while screwing over the person working.
If nobody tipped at those restaurants nobody would work at those restaurants and those restaurants would have to either start paying livable wage or go out of business.
I said if you don’t want tipping to continue, you can’t support restaurants that tip.
And I agree. I avoid going to such restaurants if given a chance. But if circumstances require going to such a restaurant do you really think tipping at that restaurant is less beneficial to the restaurant than not tipping?
In that scenario you are perpetuating the system by participating in it. It’s a choice.
If circumstances force me to participate then I should go all the way? Is that what you’re saying? So if a vegan orders a plate that happens to have meat in it then the vegan should eat that meat? After-all they’ve already participated by ordering something with meat.
I said “if” several times. The point is if you don’t want to tip or support tipping culture, don’t go somewhere that expects tips. So I’m saying “do not go somewhere that expects tips,” because I am against tipping as a system. I have been clear this entire time. I am not guilting people into tipping, I’m saying do not go somewhere where you’re supposed to tip and not tip or you’re even worse than the problem.If you do, you need to tip. But don’t go if you care about ending tipping culture.
I know you understand exactly what I am saying. Why are you so fragrantly misrepresenting me? Stop lying.
“If you don’t want to support tipping culture, don’t go somewhere that expects tips. But if you do happen to go somewhere that expects tips (regardless of how you end up going there) you absolutely must support tipping culture”.
Now let me take your point into absurdity.
“If you don’t want to support gun violence you shouldn’t own a gun. But if you happen to own a gun you should do a mass shooting.”
That’s how your argument comes across to me. I have no issue with the first part of your argument, I do that. But I have an issue with the second part because that is defending tipping culture.
I suppose, but it’s really hard to separate. You have to pick a cutoff, which in the face of a world full of intangible wealth and costs is hard, and then if you come out with a number that’s too high you basically have nowhere you can shop.
There’s select industries that are super shitty, and I avoid those, but paying minimum wage for unskilled labour is a normal industry. (And, ironically, a lot of the fair-ethical-organic type businesses are super shitty themselves, because everyone wants to get paid extra and some will do horrible things to make that happen)
Wait, where are you? I thought I recognised you from .ca, but it sounds like you might be thinking of the US system where they can pay nothing except tips. In my province you earn at least minimum wage as a waiter, and tips.
If I were to just straight up refuse to eat from restaurants under any circumstance, I’d be heavily incurring those intangible costs I mentioned, because it’s an expected social thing. That being said, I might consider it if I was in the US, but I’m not.
Also, tips have expanded well beyond servers, but that’s kind of beside the point.
Well you thought wrong. I was born and raised in the U.S. and lived there until about two weeks ago when we fled.
And in my 47 years in America, I was never in a situation where I couldn’t say, “no thanks” if someone invited me to a restaurant. And who invites you to restaurants and makes you pay?
I absolutely will pick the no-tips place given a choice, but I take issue with that wording. Basically every business pays as little as possible, by design.
Given a choice? There’s always a choice. You’re just leaving yourself a convenient back door to not tip while benefitting from tipping culture.
I would happily pay more for my meal if it meant I didn’t have to tip. The benefit we get from not tipping is marginal compared to the benefit restaurant owners get by not paying living wage. Not to mention it’s added stress to the actual people doing the work because they don’t even get the guarantee of a decent paycheck.
And there is a choice, you chose to perpetuate the system that grossly exploits the laborer, I choose to have minimal participation in such a system. Want to take a guess which of the two actually has a chance to fix the system?
…what? I’m saying they can always help it, they can always not go somewhere that expects tips. But if you would like to go somewhere that expects tips, you better fucking tip. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Don’t want to support that system? Don’t participate in it at all. Don’t just not participate in the part that costs you money. I don’t get why you’re lecturing me as if I defend tipping as a system.
But you are defending the system. You’re literally saying if you end up in a place that expects tipping then you should tip. What if you’re going out with a group and that group decides to go somewhere that expects tipping? Are you supposed to remove yourself from the group so you wouldn’t go into a place like that?
You can’t take this black and white stance where if you end up participating in this system you also have to perpetuate that system. Making the customer feel like they’re responsible for the livelihood of the staff is how this tipping culture is kept alive and that is exactly what you’re doing right now. You’re trying to claim we are responsible for their livelihood simply because we stepped into the restaurant and ate.
Show me exactly where I defended the system. Show me a single line.
I said if you don’t want tipping to continue, you can’t support restaurants that tip. If you go to a restaurant that expects tips and you don’t tip, you are keeping them in business while screwing over the person working. It is the worst of all worlds. In that scenario you are perpetuating the system by participating in it. It’s a choice.
Trying to guilt people into tipping
Literally telling people to tip.
If nobody tipped at those restaurants nobody would work at those restaurants and those restaurants would have to either start paying livable wage or go out of business.
And I agree. I avoid going to such restaurants if given a chance. But if circumstances require going to such a restaurant do you really think tipping at that restaurant is less beneficial to the restaurant than not tipping?
If circumstances force me to participate then I should go all the way? Is that what you’re saying? So if a vegan orders a plate that happens to have meat in it then the vegan should eat that meat? After-all they’ve already participated by ordering something with meat.
If
If
If.
I said “if” several times. The point is if you don’t want to tip or support tipping culture, don’t go somewhere that expects tips. So I’m saying “do not go somewhere that expects tips,” because I am against tipping as a system. I have been clear this entire time. I am not guilting people into tipping, I’m saying do not go somewhere where you’re supposed to tip and not tip or you’re even worse than the problem. If you do, you need to tip. But don’t go if you care about ending tipping culture.
I know you understand exactly what I am saying. Why are you so fragrantly misrepresenting me? Stop lying.
“If you don’t want to support tipping culture, don’t go somewhere that expects tips. But if you do happen to go somewhere that expects tips (regardless of how you end up going there) you absolutely must support tipping culture”.
Now let me take your point into absurdity.
“If you don’t want to support gun violence you shouldn’t own a gun. But if you happen to own a gun you should do a mass shooting.”
That’s how your argument comes across to me. I have no issue with the first part of your argument, I do that. But I have an issue with the second part because that is defending tipping culture.
“As little as possible” and “not enough” are two different things.
I suppose, but it’s really hard to separate. You have to pick a cutoff, which in the face of a world full of intangible wealth and costs is hard, and then if you come out with a number that’s too high you basically have nowhere you can shop.
There’s select industries that are super shitty, and I avoid those, but paying minimum wage for unskilled labour is a normal industry. (And, ironically, a lot of the fair-ethical-organic type businesses are super shitty themselves, because everyone wants to get paid extra and some will do horrible things to make that happen)
You’re saying this like it’s necessary to eat in restaurants with waiters. It isn’t. It’s a luxury.
Wait, where are you? I thought I recognised you from .ca, but it sounds like you might be thinking of the US system where they can pay nothing except tips. In my province you earn at least minimum wage as a waiter, and tips.
If I were to just straight up refuse to eat from restaurants under any circumstance, I’d be heavily incurring those intangible costs I mentioned, because it’s an expected social thing. That being said, I might consider it if I was in the US, but I’m not.
Also, tips have expanded well beyond servers, but that’s kind of beside the point.
Well you thought wrong. I was born and raised in the U.S. and lived there until about two weeks ago when we fled.
And in my 47 years in America, I was never in a situation where I couldn’t say, “no thanks” if someone invited me to a restaurant. And who invites you to restaurants and makes you pay?