The following is the text copied from the reddit post in the /r/blind sub reddit.
Moderators of r/blind—along with moderators in other communities who use assistive technologies and Reddit users with accessibility expertise—had a Zoom meeting with representatives at Reddit on Friday, June 16, 2023. While the call was promising in that Reddit invited us to be part of continuing dialog and demonstrated some well-conceived accessible designs for Reddit users, we came away with serious concerns which Reddit was either unable or unwilling to address during the meeting.
Reddit is currently prioritizing accessibility for users rather than for moderators, and representatives were unwilling to provide timelines by when Reddit’s moderation tools would be accessible for screen reader users. Further, Reddit representatives seemed unaware that blind moderators rely on third-party applications because Reddit’s moderation tools present significant accessibility challenges. They also seemed unaware that the apps which have so far received exemptions from API pricing do not have sufficient moderation functions. u/NTCarver0 explained that blind moderators will be unable to ensure safety for our communities—as well as for Reddit in general—without accessible moderation systems, and asked Reddit representatives how blind moderators were supposed to effectively moderate our communities without them. Reddit representatives deferred the question, stating they would have to take notes and get back with us. A fellow moderator, u/MostlyBlindGamer, also pointed out that blind moderators who are unable to effectively moderate the subreddit and thus will become inactive may be removed at Reddit’s discretion per policy, and that such removal would leave r/Blind with no blind moderators. Reddit representatives also deferred comment on this issue.
Reddit representatives refused to answer questions concerning the formal certifications, accreditations or qualifications of employees tasked with ensuring universal accessibility. These certifications demonstrate that a professional has the knowledge necessary to create universally-accessible software and/or documents. Because Reddit cannot confirm that employees tasked with universal accessibility hold appropriate certifications or that the company will provide for such training and certification, we have concerns that employees do not have the appropriate knowledge to effectively ensure access for all assistive technology users both at present and in the future. Reddit has also indicated there are not currently any employees who work full-time on accessibility. This is a necessity for any organization as large and influential as Reddit.
Reddit representatives had previously disclosed to r/Blind moderators that an accessibility audit had been performed by a third-party company, however they refused to answer questions as to what company performed the audit or how the audit was conducted. Answers to these questions would have allowed us to determine whether the audit was performed by an accredited organization known for credible and thorough work. Reddit also could not answer questions as to what assistive technologies, such as screen readers, screen magnifiers, dictation softwares, etc., were used during the audit. Bluntly, we cannot know the thoroughness or scope of the audit—and therefore the extent to which Reddit is aware of the accessibility barriers present in their website and apps—without this information.
During the previous meeting, Reddit representatives raised a question regarding perceived disparities between the accessibility of the iOS and Android apps, suggesting the audit did not confirm that the accessibility failings in the iOS app are much more severe than those present in the Android app. During the latest meeting, u/MostlyBlindGamer explained that the iOS app has no labels for the ubiquitous and essential upvote and downvote buttons while the Android app does. This question raises the concern that Reddit representatives may not have a full and actionable understanding of the issues at stake or, in fact, the exact accessibility failings in their apps.
Reddit representatives narrowly defined the scope of the latest meeting less than an hour ahead of it, explicitly excluding third-party apps and API pricing from the conversation. They did acknowledge that this made it difficult to adequately prepare for the meeting.
Reddit refused to define the term “accessibility-focused app,” alleging that this was outside the scope of the meeting. This term is not industry-standard and was instead created when Reddit carved out an exemption in their upcoming API policies for third-party apps used by blind people to access the platform. Without this definition, we are unable to ascertain whether apps that have not been approved but are nevertheless relied upon by community members qualify for an exemption.
Reddit gave no firm commitments as to when accessibility improvements would be rolled out to the website or apps. However, it is obvious that the Reddit website and apps will not be ready for disabled users—and especially moderators—by July 1.
In general, moderators of r/Blind who attended the call came away with mixed impressions. Reddit seems to be somewhat aware of the myriad accessibility barriers present in their applications and website, and the company appears to be laying the groundwork to fix issues which they are aware of. This is excellent news. However, we also feel that Reddit does not know what it does not know, and this lack of knowledge is exasperating, disheartening, and exhausting. We also came away frustrated that Reddit representatives were either unwilling or unable to answer prudent and pertinent questions which would allow us to determine not only how we can best keep our community safe and healthy, but also whether Reddit is truly prepared to commit to ensuring accessibility for all disabled users both now and in the future. Finally, we hope that our concerns—especially those pertaining to moderation—will be addressed expeditiously and satisfactorily, thus assuring that r/Blind can operate effectively well into the future. Despite our concerns, we remain open to continued dialog with Reddit in the hope that it will foster a more accessible platform.
I’ve never messed with web code before, but I am an experienced professional programmer and I think I can safely say that filing an issue that basically just reads “Kbin needs better accessibility for the blind” would not be particularly useful or welcome.
But what would be very useful indeed would be filing a long, detailed issue that starts with “Kbin needs better accessibility for the blind” and then goes on at great length with bullet-point lists and detailed paragraphs on exactly what it is that needs to change on Kbin to make it more accessible to the blind.
There’s a great example right in the quoted article regarding Reddit’s iOS app, for example - the upvote/downvote buttons there need to be labelled with alt text. A fully sighted developer might never think of something like that but it would likely be pretty trivial for them to fix.
So if there’s any visually impaired users reading this, or users who have experience with making web pages accessible to the visually impaired, I bet that an hour or two of your time compiling a list of such things would be a great use of time.
Edit: Well, it looks like the issue that’s basically just “Kbin needs better accessibility” was filed. There’s plenty of room for comments to be added, though!
Just for starters (knowing that they can be changed with themes) is color contrast
For example up top whether I have subscribed, all, etc selected isn’t clearly obvious.
I mean I can “tell” if I look really closely but there isn’t enough contrast.
There’s some great SASS tooling for identifying if the colors you have meet the recommended WCAG guidance for contrast/visibility.
Alt text and descriptions for items visual elements too.
While it’s hard to enforce across the fediverse I do like how I’ve seen some people post memes and write descriptive text of what is in the panels.
Here’s one I commented on.
https://beehaw.org/post/632458
As a UX designer with a specialty in accessibility, I’d break up requirements even smaller. Accessibility is an ongoing process (like security,) not an achievement.
A dev can get pretty far just using Lighthouse to audit code, then running through with a free screen reader and with keyboard only. But accessibility can seem daunting if you try to make it one huge ticket.
The best way in my mind is to build basic accessibility testing into every ticket, the way you should do with security concerns, and then have a designer or QA run periodic audits to generate specific update tickets.
And much like security, you have to design accessibility into the app. It can’t be a feature you implement later once everything else is in place. The fact that Ernest is taking this seriously from the start tells me that while he won’t hit 100% of the targets 100% of the time, the notion that accessibility won’t be a focus because there’s bigger fish to fry doesn’t quite ring true. If he’s thinking about these things, he’s going to be approaching requested features with the idea in mind that the new feature should work for people with accessibility needs first, and be pleasant to use for everyone second
Yep, this would be fantastic. Ditto goes for the apps. If anyone with experience developing accessible apps wants to help the Artemis dev, that would be awesome. I’m 100% backend, usually in Go or Python, so I don’t have much to contribute personally :(
Good lord I didn’t realize how bad the app was. This is like… basic stuff I feel like lol.
Agree. Previous comment is too forgiving. No alt tags on essential interface items is sloppy as shit. No excuse.
This is actually the core problem with accessibility in iOS apps. VoiceOver (the text-to-speech engine in iOS accessibility) automatically reads out the Title property of a button - which developers almost never set for image-based buttons because it’s of no use to anything but VoiceOver. Instead VoiceOver reads out the name of the image file used for the button; if you’re lucky the file name is “UPVOTE.png” and it sort of works, but more likely it’s something like “RESOURCE007.jpg” and completely useless.