Because of really bad experiences with alcoholics as a child, I am afraid of people who drink. My psychologist and my doctor wrote that down.
When I became seriously ill and could no longer work in my old job, I had to retrain. To do this, you have to go to the German employment office and get an assessment of your strengths and weaknesses, including what your doctor and therapist have to say.
They read the paper from my doctor and my psychologist, but just skimmed over the words and decided that because the word “alcoholic” was there, I must be the alcoholic. They told me that I could get paid retraining and benefits, but only if I attended a therapy group for alcoholics once a week - me, who is afraid of alcoholics because of the abuse I suffered as a child. … I immediately started crying and swore that I had no problem with alcohol, only with alcoholics!
It took 6 months to get someone at the job centre to actually read the papers word for word to find out that me saying “I’m not an alcoholic” was not me being an alcoholic in denial. I got a half-assed apology and my retraining 6 months after I could have started it because of this. Not to mention that every time I refused to go to AA meetings they threatened to take away my benefits and I was in such a bad mental state that I probably would have killed myself without the help of my family. Oh, and my family who tried to intervene were labelled as co-alcoholics, holding me back.
Others have mentioned it, but to elaborate, Alcoholics Anonymous is not merely sitting in a circle and sharing your problems, but a belief system which requires you to submit to a higher power to move forward.
Knew a guy who insisted he wasn’t addicted, but he can’t go a day without attending an AA meeting. 40 years, non stop. Even when in other countries for work, he finds them. Left his own daughters wedding dinner to make it to one.
He runs his own chapter where he lives. He’s had people follow the steps, sure, but some don’t. No matter how successful the latter are, he tears them apart for “not doing it right” and has turned his back on them for not following how he did it.
The process still involves relinquishing your will power and deferring to an higher/outside power. Incredibly cult like behavior. You should be raising a person’s will power. Hyping the hell out of them.
In the past, some critics have criticized 12-step programs as pseudoscientific and “a cult that relies on God as the mechanism of action”. Until recently, ethical and operational issues had prevented robust randomized controlled trials from being conducted comparing 12-step programs directly to other approaches. More recent studies employing randomized and blinded trials have shown 12-step programs provide similar benefit compared to motivational enhancement therapy (MET) and cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), and were more effective in producing continuous abstinence and remission compared to these approaches.
You have a better grasp of them than the people down voting you.
AA has done a lot to separate itself from religion in the past couple decades. But if you pay close attention, they use the exact same manipulation techniques used by religions to control their congregations.
That said, AA does a LOT of good, and in my opinion they do genuinely have the best interests of their members at heart.
That’s all fine and dandy until you get court ordered to attend these meetings as if it were a scientifically proven method of quitting drinking. It’d be like doing something bad and then being court ordered to attend church so that you can “gain a moral compass.”
Out of curiosity, where are people being remanded to AA specifically?
Having some experience in those circles. Courts often order “recovery programs” not AA, usually some form outpatient/inpatient group therapy, run by licensed therapists.
In the US, you can have court ordered AA f as punishment for alcoholic related crimes. This is sometimes given as an option over jail time or fines, so the legality is questionable, but people in those situations rarely know their rights or want to extend the court process.
You measure these things with surveys and interviews and design statics. AA claims to have success and relapse numbers, but I’d prefer independently run ones. Not everything scientific needs to be or can be a double blind trial.
If it’s measurably, it can be improved. Even if AA works, does it have a better success rate then quitting cold turkey? Even if works, are there things that can be changed to make it work even better?
Not so funny when it actually happens to you:
Because of really bad experiences with alcoholics as a child, I am afraid of people who drink. My psychologist and my doctor wrote that down.
When I became seriously ill and could no longer work in my old job, I had to retrain. To do this, you have to go to the German employment office and get an assessment of your strengths and weaknesses, including what your doctor and therapist have to say.
They read the paper from my doctor and my psychologist, but just skimmed over the words and decided that because the word “alcoholic” was there, I must be the alcoholic. They told me that I could get paid retraining and benefits, but only if I attended a therapy group for alcoholics once a week - me, who is afraid of alcoholics because of the abuse I suffered as a child. … I immediately started crying and swore that I had no problem with alcohol, only with alcoholics!
It took 6 months to get someone at the job centre to actually read the papers word for word to find out that me saying “I’m not an alcoholic” was not me being an alcoholic in denial. I got a half-assed apology and my retraining 6 months after I could have started it because of this. Not to mention that every time I refused to go to AA meetings they threatened to take away my benefits and I was in such a bad mental state that I probably would have killed myself without the help of my family. Oh, and my family who tried to intervene were labelled as co-alcoholics, holding me back.
That is terrible and I am so sorry.
They do AA in Germany? I thought that pseudo science was just an American thing.
Group therapy is pseudo-science?
Others have mentioned it, but to elaborate, Alcoholics Anonymous is not merely sitting in a circle and sharing your problems, but a belief system which requires you to submit to a higher power to move forward.
Knew a guy who insisted he wasn’t addicted, but he can’t go a day without attending an AA meeting. 40 years, non stop. Even when in other countries for work, he finds them. Left his own daughters wedding dinner to make it to one.
He runs his own chapter where he lives. He’s had people follow the steps, sure, but some don’t. No matter how successful the latter are, he tears them apart for “not doing it right” and has turned his back on them for not following how he did it.
My favorite quote on fanaticism applies here:
“Fanaticism consists in redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim” - George Santayana
I didn’t know you could be addicted to AA meetings. I guess alcohol is a gateway drug to AA meetings, lol.
That’s 12 step. Not all AA is 12 step.
Almost All… But yes in recent years AA has tried to distance itself from the higher power ( God) rhetoric.
AA is somewhat decentralized, and you will have splinter groups.
Also to clarify, 12 step is a process created by the founders of AA. It’s not a separate thing.
The process still involves relinquishing your will power and deferring to an higher/outside power. Incredibly cult like behavior. You should be raising a person’s will power. Hyping the hell out of them.
Oh I absolutely agree, the manipulation techniques used, are still the same ones religions use to control their congregations.
I assume they mean this?
Source: Wikipedia
You don’t know about AA, do you?
I know they get preachy but you can ignore that, many alcoholics get help from them without joining the cult of Christianity
You have a better grasp of them than the people down voting you.
AA has done a lot to separate itself from religion in the past couple decades. But if you pay close attention, they use the exact same manipulation techniques used by religions to control their congregations.
That said, AA does a LOT of good, and in my opinion they do genuinely have the best interests of their members at heart.
No, just AA
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That’s all fine and dandy until you get court ordered to attend these meetings as if it were a scientifically proven method of quitting drinking. It’d be like doing something bad and then being court ordered to attend church so that you can “gain a moral compass.”
Out of curiosity, where are people being remanded to AA specifically?
Having some experience in those circles. Courts often order “recovery programs” not AA, usually some form outpatient/inpatient group therapy, run by licensed therapists.
In the US, you can have court ordered AA f as punishment for alcoholic related crimes. This is sometimes given as an option over jail time or fines, so the legality is questionable, but people in those situations rarely know their rights or want to extend the court process.
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It makes no claims to be scientific… so it’s measurably worthless?
You seem to be agreeing my dude
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Damn bro rather be me without legs than you with millions you disgust me
You measure these things with surveys and interviews and design statics. AA claims to have success and relapse numbers, but I’d prefer independently run ones. Not everything scientific needs to be or can be a double blind trial.
If it’s measurably, it can be improved. Even if AA works, does it have a better success rate then quitting cold turkey? Even if works, are there things that can be changed to make it work even better?
You sound like you’re in a cult.
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My lord that is absolutely bonkers and I am so sorry for what you had to go through!