Despite it being “lovely”, it’s still on stolen Palestinian land, hence illegal.
Edit:
I read further (from the same link)
Be’eri was well known for its pro-peace sympathies: It had a special fund to give financial help to Gazans who came to the kibbutz on work permits, and kibbutzniks would often volunteer to drive sick Palestinians to an oncology center in southern Israel
That’s great though, I respect that. That changes my view on that kibbutz. I don’t agree with Hamas’ blanket statements and generalization, and have been critical of them since I was first aware of their existence and lost many friends over it.
Still, I understand why Gazans are angry at them – Palestinians shouldn’t have to live on handouts of good Israelis… it’s the same way I understand why there are attacks on white farms in South Africa. What they did is wrong, this is an explanation as to why, not whether or not it was wrong. It helps to form an understanding of why 75 years of apartheid and radicalization can drive people over the edge.
In the end, when this all started, some Hamas at least freed numerous hostages for humanitarian reasons. They are not all bad. Some of them are genuinely just resistance fighters and don’t want to do bad things and even have conflicts with other members who do. The same goes for the IDF (recommending basically every video produced by Breaking the Silence).
Still, I understand why Gazans are angry at them – Palestinians shouldn’t have to live on handouts of good Israelis… it’s the same way I understand why there are attacks on white farms in South Africa. What they did is wrong, this is an explanation as to why, not whether or not it was wrong. It helps to form an understanding of why 75 years of apartheid and radicalization can drive people over the edge.
That doesn’t change that Hamas’s goals and methods are genocidal in all but success rate. “Well, they were oppressed for so long” might be a ‘why’, but it’s hardly a ‘why’ worth mentioning; no more than the history of oppression of the Jews is worth mentioning when discussing the ongoing genocide of Palestinians. Ultimately, there is only one answer worth giving - that genocide is unacceptable, and whichever side is currently attempting it (Israel, in this case) must be punished, and the side that was recently attempting it (Hamas) must not be justified or lionized.
In the end, when this all started, some Hamas at least freed numerous hostages for humanitarian reasons. They are not all bad. Some of them are genuinely just resistance fighters and don’t want to do bad things and even have conflicts with other members who do. The same goes for the IDF (recommending basically every video produced by Breaking the Silence).
Propaganda moves and negotiations for hostage swaps aren’t signs of being ‘not all bad’ and not wanting to ‘do bad things’. Fuck man, every terrorist group of note in history makes those propaganda moves - terrorist states like Israel included.
Neither Hamas’ goals nor their methods are “genocidal”. They don’t call for the eradication of Jewish people. You can argue that if these massacres like October 7th continue, you can have a case for genocide. But now? Nah.
The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139.
Even including police, that’s a 32% civilian casualty ratio. Israel’s current civilian casualty ratio is between 20%-38%.
I ask again, what is the lowest civilian casualty ratio that suggests genocide to you? How many of the attacked locations have to be civilian targets in which only civilians were killed before you’ll admit that maybe Israel’s response of wholesale slaughter of civilians based on ethnicity does not retroactively justify Hamas’s attempts at the wholesale slaughter of civilians based on ethnicity?
Israel is killing 70% women and children. How the hell are you even going to 38%? Even 20% is an absurd claim. It’s likely around 95-98%.
The numbers are intended the other way around. The 32% I cited for Hamas suggests 68% of the deaths are civilians; the 20-38% I suggested for Israel suggests 80%-62% of Israel’s genocidal campaign are civilian deaths. I can see how you’d get the other interpretation.
I already explained the rest multiple times I don’t have time for repeated IDF trolling.
Explained is a cute word for ‘dismissed because targeting civilians hurts the hero-worship for Hamas you’re cultivating’
Part of it is that I see Hamas apologia often on here, people saying shit like “October 7 was legitimate resistance!” and “Hamas doesn’t target civilians!”
Part of it is that phrasing things in stark terms forces examination of the issue - people can brush off “I think your estimate is too low” and then continue peddling the same nonsense elsewhere - or even in the same conversation - without ever bothering to actually consider the implications of their position.
I suggested for Israel suggests 80%-62% of Israel’s genocidal campaign are civilian deaths. I can see how you’d get the other interpretation.
70% of Palestinians killed are owmen and children.
62% civilian deaths for israel means that you’re saying 100% of Palestinian men are Hamas and 8% of Palestinian women and children are Hamas. Either I’m still not understanding your claim or it’s a very stupid claim.
Explained is a cute word for ‘dismissed because targeting civilians hurts the hero-worship for Hamas you’re cultivating’
The IDF has already admitted there’s no babies in ovens, no pregnant women with bellies cut open, and many news outlets are throwing the rape stories out of the window because of credibility issues.
You want Hamas to be some evil monster org. They did some bad stuff sure but you’re comparing them to actual genocidal maniacs like the Nazis or israel.
By the newest math, Netanyahu now says 75% of Hamas has been eliminated (citation needed of course because the IDF lies through their teeth at every chance). If we take the generous assumption of Hamas being made up of 30,000 fighters, how many civilians killed is Netanyahu claiming are Hamas?
And I think the most hilarious thing with Israel is that they claim to both being hugely successful but also that “lots more needs to be done”. If the end goal is making Gaza unlivable (we are almost there!), then this kind of rhetoric will buy them enough time to finish the job.
Oh yeah wait, I forgot! Israel claims everyone is Hamas… Everyone who works a government job is working for (K)HAMAS, every garbage man is a (K)HAMAS operative because they work for a (K)HAMAS-run municipality, every volunteer at the library is in a (K)HAMAS LIBRARY, hence okay to kill. They even blew up the Gaza archive building, maybe the archives were (K)HAMAS? Or maybe they are trying to eliminate these people and any means of them surviving 🙃
Even on ToI, they had this ridiculous news report about how “KHAMAS POLICE RETURNS TO NORTHERN GAZA AND CREATE MAKESHIFT CENTERS TO DISTRIBUTE PAY”
Bro, those are the actual fucking Police! They claim Hamas is both in the tunnels and not in the tunnels simultaneously so they can cover more surface area for murder.
62% civilian deaths for israel means that you’re saying 100% of Palestinian men are Hamas and 8% of Palestinian women and children are Hamas. Either I’m still not understanding your claim or it’s a very stupid claim.
I’m just citing the range of third party sources. Although I don’t think female participation in hostilities is ridiculous considering Hamas has used women in previous operations, 100% of Palestinian men obviously is. Take the 80% if you prefer - it’s still not that far off from the 68% of Hamas.
The IDF has already admitted there’s no babies in ovens, no pregnant women with bellies cut open,
I don’t see where I claimed that? I claimed Hamas has intentionally targeted and murdered civilians on ethnic grounds, which is incontrovertible.
and many news outlets are throwing the rape stories out of the window because of credibility issues.
Believe all women (unless they’re Israeli), huh?
You want Hamas to be some evil monster org. They did some bad stuff sure but you’re comparing them to actual genocidal maniacs like the Nazis or israel.
“They did some bad stuff”
Ah, yes, just a little light genocide, a bit of a massacre based on the ethnicity of the victims, please don’t worry about it.
Only for lack of success.
I mean, their founding constitution literally says death to Israel. Lack of success is literally the only reason why.
Doesn’t justify Israel war crime, but people should atleast understand what both sides goals are.
No, no, they totally and radically changed in 2017, please ignore any history, context, statements, or actions past that point.
Good point. A renewed charter can be a sign of change but also a sign of trying to normalize one’s organization.
No it was pretty clear that they were not trying eradicate everyone. You don’t get 33% military kills when you’re going for genocide.
They shouldn’t have killed any civilians, but I understand why they’d attack an illegal settlement right outside their open air prison.
Yes, very illegal, this settlement
Despite it being “lovely”, it’s still on stolen Palestinian land, hence illegal.
Edit:
I read further (from the same link)
That’s great though, I respect that. That changes my view on that kibbutz. I don’t agree with Hamas’ blanket statements and generalization, and have been critical of them since I was first aware of their existence and lost many friends over it.
Still, I understand why Gazans are angry at them – Palestinians shouldn’t have to live on handouts of good Israelis… it’s the same way I understand why there are attacks on white farms in South Africa. What they did is wrong, this is an explanation as to why, not whether or not it was wrong. It helps to form an understanding of why 75 years of apartheid and radicalization can drive people over the edge.
In the end, when this all started, some Hamas at least freed numerous hostages for humanitarian reasons. They are not all bad. Some of them are genuinely just resistance fighters and don’t want to do bad things and even have conflicts with other members who do. The same goes for the IDF (recommending basically every video produced by Breaking the Silence).
It’s been Israeli since 1948. It’s not an illegal settlement under international law.
In 1946 actually.
PS: please see my edit on the comment on your link! thanks.
Yes, but Israel wasn’t formally declared until '48.
And what exactly happened between 1946-1948?
Its almost like they went to war with their allies and lost territory when they lost or something.
That doesn’t change that Hamas’s goals and methods are genocidal in all but success rate. “Well, they were oppressed for so long” might be a ‘why’, but it’s hardly a ‘why’ worth mentioning; no more than the history of oppression of the Jews is worth mentioning when discussing the ongoing genocide of Palestinians. Ultimately, there is only one answer worth giving - that genocide is unacceptable, and whichever side is currently attempting it (Israel, in this case) must be punished, and the side that was recently attempting it (Hamas) must not be justified or lionized.
Propaganda moves and negotiations for hostage swaps aren’t signs of being ‘not all bad’ and not wanting to ‘do bad things’. Fuck man, every terrorist group of note in history makes those propaganda moves - terrorist states like Israel included.
Neither Hamas’ goals nor their methods are “genocidal”. They don’t call for the eradication of Jewish people. You can argue that if these massacres like October 7th continue, you can have a case for genocide. But now? Nah.
Wholesale slaughter of civilians based on ethnicity and targeting of civilians centers based on the predominant ethnicity isn’t genocidal in method?
What would it take, theoretically, to convince you that Hamas’s goals remain genocidal? Other, of course, than their murderous actions?
I can find a great deal to dispute this.
Hence my statement that it wasn’t genocidal “Only for lack of success.”
This isn’t the first such attack. This isn’t even the second or the third. This is just the most successful one so far.
Cool, show me where in their latest charter? Or examples from its leaders?
Military veteran recounts Israeli helicopter firing missiles in kibbutz Be’eri
Tank fires on Israeli civilian home in Kibbutz Be’eri, 7 October 2023
Hamas had hostages inside so the IDF decided to unalive everyone inside with the Hanibal doctrine :)
Ah, so all those people slaughtered at a music festival were dangerous, I see.
Funny because the civilian casualty ratio for Hamas is higher than that. What is the lowest civilian casualty ratio that suggests genocide to you?
Are you still on the 1400 deaths train? That was debunked long ago dude
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths
And the IDF shot tanks at the kibbutzes,
And the IDF helicopters shot hellfire missles at the kibbutzes.
The real civilian casualty count from just Hamas likeylies at 1/2 or lower.
Even including police, that’s a 32% civilian casualty ratio. Israel’s current civilian casualty ratio is between 20%-38%.
I ask again, what is the lowest civilian casualty ratio that suggests genocide to you? How many of the attacked locations have to be civilian targets in which only civilians were killed before you’ll admit that maybe Israel’s response of wholesale slaughter of civilians based on ethnicity does not retroactively justify Hamas’s attempts at the wholesale slaughter of civilians based on ethnicity?
Israel is killing 70% women and children. How the hell are you even going to 38%? Even 20% is an absurd claim. It’s likely around 95-98%.
I already explained the rest multiple times I don’t have time for repeated IDF trolling.
The numbers are intended the other way around. The 32% I cited for Hamas suggests 68% of the deaths are civilians; the 20-38% I suggested for Israel suggests 80%-62% of Israel’s genocidal campaign are civilian deaths. I can see how you’d get the other interpretation.
Explained is a cute word for ‘dismissed because targeting civilians hurts the hero-worship for Hamas you’re cultivating’
I think you have good points, but can I ask why you always jump to the assumption that people are hero-worshipping Hamas?
Part of it is that I see Hamas apologia often on here, people saying shit like “October 7 was legitimate resistance!” and “Hamas doesn’t target civilians!”
Part of it is that phrasing things in stark terms forces examination of the issue - people can brush off “I think your estimate is too low” and then continue peddling the same nonsense elsewhere - or even in the same conversation - without ever bothering to actually consider the implications of their position.
Part of it is just frustration.
70% of Palestinians killed are owmen and children.
62% civilian deaths for israel means that you’re saying 100% of Palestinian men are Hamas and 8% of Palestinian women and children are Hamas. Either I’m still not understanding your claim or it’s a very stupid claim.
The IDF has already admitted there’s no babies in ovens, no pregnant women with bellies cut open, and many news outlets are throwing the rape stories out of the window because of credibility issues.
You want Hamas to be some evil monster org. They did some bad stuff sure but you’re comparing them to actual genocidal maniacs like the Nazis or israel.
By the newest math, Netanyahu now says 75% of Hamas has been eliminated (citation needed of course because the IDF lies through their teeth at every chance). If we take the generous assumption of Hamas being made up of 30,000 fighters, how many civilians killed is Netanyahu claiming are Hamas?
And I think the most hilarious thing with Israel is that they claim to both being hugely successful but also that “lots more needs to be done”. If the end goal is making Gaza unlivable (we are almost there!), then this kind of rhetoric will buy them enough time to finish the job.
Oh yeah wait, I forgot! Israel claims everyone is Hamas… Everyone who works a government job is working for (K)HAMAS, every garbage man is a (K)HAMAS operative because they work for a (K)HAMAS-run municipality, every volunteer at the library is in a (K)HAMAS LIBRARY, hence okay to kill. They even blew up the Gaza archive building, maybe the archives were (K)HAMAS? Or maybe they are trying to eliminate these people and any means of them surviving 🙃
Even on ToI, they had this ridiculous news report about how “KHAMAS POLICE RETURNS TO NORTHERN GAZA AND CREATE MAKESHIFT CENTERS TO DISTRIBUTE PAY”
Bro, those are the actual fucking Police! They claim Hamas is both in the tunnels and not in the tunnels simultaneously so they can cover more surface area for murder.
I’m just citing the range of third party sources. Although I don’t think female participation in hostilities is ridiculous considering Hamas has used women in previous operations, 100% of Palestinian men obviously is. Take the 80% if you prefer - it’s still not that far off from the 68% of Hamas.
I don’t see where I claimed that? I claimed Hamas has intentionally targeted and murdered civilians on ethnic grounds, which is incontrovertible.
Believe all women (unless they’re Israeli), huh?
“They did some bad stuff”
Ah, yes, just a little light genocide, a bit of a massacre based on the ethnicity of the victims, please don’t worry about it.