Food is a basic need, killing something for fun isn’t. There are many situations where it’s important for people to eat meat even in the modern era. I see veganism as a technological issue, if you can do it, that’s great. Many people can’t for a wide variety of reasons, though those reasons can be solved through better technology, socialism, and the refinement and advent of new vegan foods, binding agents, etc.
Animal byproducts obviously do not require the death of the animal, yet vegans also reject this. You can treat the animal far better than it would receive in the wild, you eat some eggs, and vegans also reject this. There is also a tendency to reject history, some vegans here have argued things like “hunter gatherers ate only vegetables”. This is false, the Inuit had a diet of mostly meat, as did many peoples in arid and arctic regions. Why? Because there are foods we cannot digest well that are in abundance in these areas, that other animals can. This was common historically and in many places now, until humans began domesticating and replacing local plants over tens of thousands of years, there were not large quantities of food that were edible to us. In most of human diaspora out of Africa, humans were in fact scavengers and would frequently compete in a niche reserved for Giant Hyenas (pack animals the size of a horse), our main competitor at the time.
There are many people that have digestive issues due to chemical poisoning by capitalism, or by genetics. If you research this phenomenon, these people become averted to any sort of sugar in plants, plant proteins, and even bulky carbohydrates. Certain types of meat are also issues. These people are essentially forced to eat meat and some very select vegetables in order to meet their dietary requirements. Until this is technologically solved, a vast swathe of people would starve to death, among other ailments, under a vegan only regimen.
Am I vegan? Technically, yes, I eat only plant stuff 99% of the time, but it’s also because it’s a thing I can handle.
This justification can be used for killing and eating your dog, the local squirrels, your next door neighbor, your grandma, and literally anything else that can be digested on the planet. The fact that you must eat something does not mean that it is morally justifiable to eat anything.
This is pretty into the weeds, the vast majority of people could stand to at least attempt vegetarian diets rather than meat for every meal which is where the original commenter’s point on “industrial torture industry” comes from
If everyone who is able to do so were doing so, the fraction of a fraction of the population who was unable to for whatever reason would not result in the torture factories present today
You’re a regular poster and I know this is good faith, but it’s using niche situations to cover for regular, widespread atrocities
This is pretty into the weeds, the vast majority of people could stand to at least attempt vegetarian diets rather than meat for every meal which is where the original commenter’s point on “industrial torture industry” comes from
You’re a regular poster and I know this is good faith, but it’s using niche situations to cover for regular, widespread atrocities
Roughly 30% of western society has ailments that could prevent them from going full vegan. This argument is similar to other arguments, “only a handful of people die of covid”, “only 1% of society is trans, there is no need to accomodate or discuss”.
I do of course agree that most people should reduce or annihilate their intake of meat, not for moralistic reasons but for efficiency and environmental reasons. I also think that synthetic meat and heavily processed GMO plants like soy are getting better and are necessary for ideological veganism, and anyone that thinks it is unnecessary is fooling themselves.
I recall finding some study for all digestive ailments being about 30%, but here are two common diseases. I really need to start keeping track of my source but I always forget to. Each are somewhere around 10-30% of the US or the west depending on the study. Not all of this 30% is completely unable to go vegan, but a good portion are. About 60-70% report their conditions as being ‘moderate to severe’. IBS sufferers have significant comorbidities with other diseases, further complicating matters. It should be noted that IBS is much lower in nonwestern countries, perhaps this is due to how many processed foods have excessive fodmaps (high fructose corn syrup, garlic and onion concentrate), perhaps its due to certain common medicine interactions, maybe its a reporting issue.
I’m not nitpicking, but I did say at least attempt a vegetarian diet which would address the crux of the original comment regarding widespread animal torture which never explicitly even mentions veganism
It’s not as though there is going to be some sweeping legislation to outlaw meat and kill meat eaters which is akin to examples you’re making here wrt COVID or trans people. If 70% of the population made a conscious effort to stop eating meat that would be a tremendous benefit for their health, the welfare of animals, and the climate. And as a bonus, they’d save money doing it
It’s not as though there is going to be some sweeping legislation to outlaw meat and kill meat eaters which is akin to examples you’re making here wrt COVID or trans people. I
There are plenty here that think it should be fully outlawed, just because you aren’t one doesn’t mean it isn’t a common sentiment
I’ll be honest, I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a post like that made in sincerity and it’s not what I’m advocating for
I don’t deny a subset of the population may have legitimate dietary constraints, but their existence doesn’t excuse the vast majority who do not. I have seen those who do not use the existence of those people as a shield for their own spinelessness in refusing to cut meat from their diet for purely selfish reasons
And this is coming from an autistic person who cannot stand the texture of beans even today and would sit at the table for hours as a kid refusing to eat vegetables I did not like. If it’s important enough, adjusting your diet is an accomplishable task. It’s clear that some posters here do not feel the unnecessary suffering of animals is important enough for them to make a relatively simple lifestyle change and it’s disturbing
This type of “what about if I had a disease that would kill me if I didn’t eat meat” concern trolling is intended to distract from the underlying issue of mass slaughter. The actual justification that this kind of industrial-scale suffering is acceptable because the food tastes good annd non-human animals don’t matter isn’t as clean an image as disability-rights advocate.
Yeah think I’m going to tap out of my second experience in this specific topic struggle sesh. It’s so tiring seeing people who know better advocating pointless cruelty when they’ll criticize libs and chuds for the exact same thought patterns
what about if I had a disease that would kill me if I didn’t eat meat
This exists. I never said I had that issue, but I do know people who do. Continue to live with your head in the clouds if you want.
If you want me to educate you on the science relating to this, I can. If you’re not willing to educate yourself on disabilities and how to help people with them, maybe you should.
Sure, educate me, but don’t pretend that every Reddit-tier anti-vegan is arguing from a sincere concern for these people. I know that there are certain conditions that make going vegan very difficult. However this is a systemic failure to provide alternative sources of protein and nutrients.
Killing billions of sentient beings every year is bad. And if you want to argue otherwise, I don’t see why it would then be unethical to kill and eat a dog. And from the animal’s point of view, your reasons for killing them don’t matter.
Every time someone cites a medical condition, I’ve been able to explain that it doesn’t absolutely require eating meat. It’s harder, but it’s preferable to murder, which is the underlying issue you seem unwilling to confront.
Food is a basic need, killing something for fun isn’t. There are many situations where it’s important for people to eat meat even in the modern era. I see veganism as a technological issue, if you can do it, that’s great. Many people can’t for a wide variety of reasons, though those reasons can be solved through better technology, socialism, and the refinement and advent of new vegan foods, binding agents, etc.
Animal byproducts obviously do not require the death of the animal, yet vegans also reject this. You can treat the animal far better than it would receive in the wild, you eat some eggs, and vegans also reject this. There is also a tendency to reject history, some vegans here have argued things like “hunter gatherers ate only vegetables”. This is false, the Inuit had a diet of mostly meat, as did many peoples in arid and arctic regions. Why? Because there are foods we cannot digest well that are in abundance in these areas, that other animals can. This was common historically and in many places now, until humans began domesticating and replacing local plants over tens of thousands of years, there were not large quantities of food that were edible to us. In most of human diaspora out of Africa, humans were in fact scavengers and would frequently compete in a niche reserved for Giant Hyenas (pack animals the size of a horse), our main competitor at the time.
There are many people that have digestive issues due to chemical poisoning by capitalism, or by genetics. If you research this phenomenon, these people become averted to any sort of sugar in plants, plant proteins, and even bulky carbohydrates. Certain types of meat are also issues. These people are essentially forced to eat meat and some very select vegetables in order to meet their dietary requirements. Until this is technologically solved, a vast swathe of people would starve to death, among other ailments, under a vegan only regimen.
Am I vegan? Technically, yes, I eat only plant stuff 99% of the time, but it’s also because it’s a thing I can handle.
This justification can be used for killing and eating your dog, the local squirrels, your next door neighbor, your grandma, and literally anything else that can be digested on the planet. The fact that you must eat something does not mean that it is morally justifiable to eat anything.
This is pretty into the weeds, the vast majority of people could stand to at least attempt vegetarian diets rather than meat for every meal which is where the original commenter’s point on “industrial torture industry” comes from
If everyone who is able to do so were doing so, the fraction of a fraction of the population who was unable to for whatever reason would not result in the torture factories present today
You’re a regular poster and I know this is good faith, but it’s using niche situations to cover for regular, widespread atrocities
Roughly 30% of western society has ailments that could prevent them from going full vegan. This argument is similar to other arguments, “only a handful of people die of covid”, “only 1% of society is trans, there is no need to accomodate or discuss”.
I do of course agree that most people should reduce or annihilate their intake of meat, not for moralistic reasons but for efficiency and environmental reasons. I also think that synthetic meat and heavily processed GMO plants like soy are getting better and are necessary for ideological veganism, and anyone that thinks it is unnecessary is fooling themselves.
do you know where i could read more about this? tried googling the figure but couldn’t find anything
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9486601/
https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/digestive-diseases/acid-reflux-ger-gerd-adults/definition-facts
I recall finding some study for all digestive ailments being about 30%, but here are two common diseases. I really need to start keeping track of my source but I always forget to. Each are somewhere around 10-30% of the US or the west depending on the study. Not all of this 30% is completely unable to go vegan, but a good portion are. About 60-70% report their conditions as being ‘moderate to severe’. IBS sufferers have significant comorbidities with other diseases, further complicating matters. It should be noted that IBS is much lower in nonwestern countries, perhaps this is due to how many processed foods have excessive fodmaps (high fructose corn syrup, garlic and onion concentrate), perhaps its due to certain common medicine interactions, maybe its a reporting issue.
I’m not nitpicking, but I did say at least attempt a vegetarian diet which would address the crux of the original comment regarding widespread animal torture which never explicitly even mentions veganism
It’s not as though there is going to be some sweeping legislation to outlaw meat and kill meat eaters which is akin to examples you’re making here wrt COVID or trans people. If 70% of the population made a conscious effort to stop eating meat that would be a tremendous benefit for their health, the welfare of animals, and the climate. And as a bonus, they’d save money doing it
There are plenty here that think it should be fully outlawed, just because you aren’t one doesn’t mean it isn’t a common sentiment
I’ll be honest, I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a post like that made in sincerity and it’s not what I’m advocating for
I don’t deny a subset of the population may have legitimate dietary constraints, but their existence doesn’t excuse the vast majority who do not. I have seen those who do not use the existence of those people as a shield for their own spinelessness in refusing to cut meat from their diet for purely selfish reasons
And this is coming from an autistic person who cannot stand the texture of beans even today and would sit at the table for hours as a kid refusing to eat vegetables I did not like. If it’s important enough, adjusting your diet is an accomplishable task. It’s clear that some posters here do not feel the unnecessary suffering of animals is important enough for them to make a relatively simple lifestyle change and it’s disturbing
This type of “what about if I had a disease that would kill me if I didn’t eat meat” concern trolling is intended to distract from the underlying issue of mass slaughter. The actual justification that this kind of industrial-scale suffering is acceptable because the food tastes good annd non-human animals don’t matter isn’t as clean an image as disability-rights advocate.
I don’t recommend further engagement.
Yeah think I’m going to tap out of my second experience in this specific topic struggle sesh. It’s so tiring seeing people who know better advocating pointless cruelty when they’ll criticize libs and chuds for the exact same thought patterns
This exists. I never said I had that issue, but I do know people who do. Continue to live with your head in the clouds if you want.
If you want me to educate you on the science relating to this, I can. If you’re not willing to educate yourself on disabilities and how to help people with them, maybe you should.
Sure, educate me, but don’t pretend that every Reddit-tier anti-vegan is arguing from a sincere concern for these people. I know that there are certain conditions that make going vegan very difficult. However this is a systemic failure to provide alternative sources of protein and nutrients. Killing billions of sentient beings every year is bad. And if you want to argue otherwise, I don’t see why it would then be unethical to kill and eat a dog. And from the animal’s point of view, your reasons for killing them don’t matter.
Every time someone cites a medical condition, I’ve been able to explain that it doesn’t absolutely require eating meat. It’s harder, but it’s preferable to murder, which is the underlying issue you seem unwilling to confront.
what do you mean by this?
Some people seem to have the goal of a fully vegan society. Veganism for yourself right now is obviously a personal choice.
Am I a non-cannibal? Technically, yes, I eat only non-human stuff 99% of the time.