I’m not saying that Democrats do only good things. They do tons of bad things. I’m saying that if you can’t see any difference (from the perspective of the American working class, which seems to be the focus here), you’re out of touch with the masses.
Come on, half your comment is “Democrats failed to sufficiently oppose the horrible things Republicans are actively doing.” It doesn’t address when they have opposed those things (see blue states codifying abortion rights) or when they’ve done good things on their own (see those legitimately pro-worker improvements in Minnesota).
Those are definitely not drops in the ocean. It’s the difference between whether you can get an abortion or not, whether you have paid sick leave or not, whether you can have your life upended for smoking a joint, etc. Those are material things people actually care about.
We agree that these are scraps when compared to what the working class deserves, but most people correctly see that the full meal is not on the table right now. They see scraps vs. someone getting punched in the face. That’s a real difference even though both options are bad.
I don’t know how I can state this more plainly: I’m talking about how Americans see the two parties, because that’s what this post seems to refer to.
If we want to stop this engine of death it’s either nuclear war or dismantling it from the inside. Having a clear understanding of domestic U.S. politics is useful; “everyone is a fascist but my True Leftist friends” is not.
The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s plantation; and this ‘holding the nose and supporting our enemies’ shit is the master’s tools; right up there with ‘turning the other cheek’.
That’s probably right, but it sure implies the system’s tools of oppression can’t be seized and used against our oppressors. Comes across as very anarchist.
“The master’s tools” here would be elections, the courts, and otherwise working through the institutions of bourgeois democracy. I’m not suggesting that. I’m saying that policies like abortion are material issues that Americans do care about.
The US will be dismantled from the inside when conditions for everyday Americans get bad enough that they no longer see their interests as aligning with imperialism. That’s just starting to happen, and as a matter of fact Republicans are right now the ones articulating popular anger and anti-war sentiment – hypocritically and not at all well, so you shouldn’t support them either. But it gives the lie to the “Democrats are slightly better” line, which reflected reality all through the Bush years and now doesn’t reflect reality at all.
Imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism, and American domestic politics and and American foreign policy are not separate issues. They go hand in hand. Perhaps I’m misreading The Squad, and they’re actually all brilliant politicians, who are even now working on a masterplan which will bring back the prosperity of the 50s and 60s; but even if they succeeded in doing that, it would be through foreign wars and resource extraction. (And in point of fact, that too would be impossible: American capitalism is now in its late, decadent stage where it can only produce wealth at home by destroying it elsewhere. Hemmed in by Russia and China, the American ruling class has to turn inward and undevelop the United States itself. Insofar as the Democrats are major party working within the system, they too are complicit in this).
This post is clearly about domestic American politics. The people I’m arguing with are intentionally ignoring that contex to get angry over something no one here disagrees with them on. If they’re trying to say that we should never discuss domestic American politics because who cares, America does horrible things abroad, that’s just a ridiculous take – obviously we can talk about both.
It’s just a an extremely bad faith reading of all the comments in here that are trying to discuss what the post actually says.
What would you call it when you repeatedly say Democrats are not good, and even compare them to a huge pile of shit, and then someone claims you’re defending genocide?
“Democrats failed to sufficiently oppose the horrible things Republicans are actively doing.”
This suggests democrats do oppose bad things in the first place. When masses of protesters say “defund the police” Democrats say “we’re with BLM, but we interpret “defund the police” to mean “fund the police.” The Alaska pipeline that wasn’t going to happen under trump? Biden makes it happen. Biden campaigned on climate and ended up opening up vast swathes of public land to oil drilling. The democrats said they’d be better on immigration, but they’re worse than trump. Not because trump was good, but that it gets worse every administration whichever party’s in power. They didn’t “insufficiently oppose”Iraq, they were cheerleading bush’s invasion. They don’t “insufficiently oppose” Libya, Syria, or Ukraine, they are the main force behind those wars. Both parties are terrible and it’s absurd to act like dems are “a net good if small” which is exactly the narrative you seem to be promoting. You say blue states having abortion access is a win when that’s a given, but they had the chance to codify roe and chose not to. There is a reason why more people don’t vote than do for either major party.
You’re talking about bad things Democrats do. I’m not arguing with any of that. I’ve said multiple times that Democrats are not good.
What I’m talking about is the few good things Democrats do, and the areas where just being a warm body who’s not a Republican makes them better (think not redefining curricula to say slavery was job training). Americans look at that stuff and see a difference between the parties, and to argue otherwise is out of touch.
Imagine two huge piles of shit, but one has a $20 bill in it and the other had a used needle. People here keep saying “they’re both piles of shit!,” which I agree with. What I disagree with is the idea that both piles are exactly the same. If you really need twenty bucks and you can choose one or the other, the difference is obvious.
Most non-voters aren’t carefully examining all political options and making a conscientious decision to abstain from mainstream politics. They’re not voting for material reasons, like:
Having to work that day
Having to find your polling place, stand in line for who knows how long, figure out if you’re even registered, etc.
Being exhausted from work when you clock out
Having no support for household labor, so you have shit to do when you get off work
Nowhere in this thread am I saying anything like “voting for Democrats is the best option.” I’m saying (for about the 30th time now) that there are real, material benefits Democrats provide over Republicans. Saying there is no difference between paid sick leave or no paid sick leave, or abortion access or no abortion access, makes us look stupid or out of touch.
I look forward to having to explain for the 30th time that this does not make Democrats good, does not excuse what Democrats support abroad, and these are not even things Democrats universally support. Can’t wait to argue over more stuff I’m not even saying.
If there are real material benefits democrats provide over the alternative isn’t the logical conclusion from that that democrats are better than republicans and worth supporting as a “lesser evil?” If there are two groups and one kills 19 people and another kills 20 but gives a couple random people ten dollars do you say “yes both killed people, but the second group made a material difference in some other people’s lives, you’ve got to acknowledge that, stop pretending they’re the same?”
isn’t the logical conclusion from that that democrats are better than republicans and worth supporting as a “lesser evil?”
You know this is a bullshit argument. Do you see how dishonest it is to know it’s bullshit and try to pin it on someone who’s is not even close to making it?
The material reality to Americans is that they can get an abortion in California and not Florida because of party control. They have paid sick leave in Minnesota but not Texas for the same reason.
I’m talking about their material reality because the post is about domestic U.S. politics.
Yeah and if you count up all the material things each party does for Americans, Democrats come out ahead. You don’t have to walk sixth graders through stuff like this.
if you can’t see any difference (from the perspective of the American working class, which seems to be the focus here)
Oh no it isn’t. That seems to be your fundamental false premise here. A sizeable majority of the working class in America support the Democrats, the most warmongering party in the US. They are owed no solidarity from us for this.
If you’re not doing that then stop being defensive. Based on the positions that you’ve denied we should be in agreement. Just accept what we’re saying and move on. All you seem to be arguing now is that you didn’t say what you implied.
You keep being defensive and saying that we are lying about what you are saying, but since so many of us drew that conclusion it should be clear that your statements could imply that “we need to support democrats because they are slightly better than Republicans.” If that is truly not your position then we have nothing to argue about except how your statements were interpreted. Why don’t you just say “I agree with what you are saying, and I never meant to imply the position you interpreted me to have?”
I’m not saying that Democrats do only good things. They do tons of bad things. I’m saying that if you can’t see any difference (from the perspective of the American working class, which seems to be the focus here), you’re out of touch with the masses.
Come on, half your comment is “Democrats failed to sufficiently oppose the horrible things Republicans are actively doing.” It doesn’t address when they have opposed those things (see blue states codifying abortion rights) or when they’ve done good things on their own (see those legitimately pro-worker improvements in Minnesota).
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Those are definitely not drops in the ocean. It’s the difference between whether you can get an abortion or not, whether you have paid sick leave or not, whether you can have your life upended for smoking a joint, etc. Those are material things people actually care about.
We agree that these are scraps when compared to what the working class deserves, but most people correctly see that the full meal is not on the table right now. They see scraps vs. someone getting punched in the face. That’s a real difference even though both options are bad.
Rights (albeit very minimal) for the working class at home, but genocide for those untermenschen abroad? What does this sound like?
I don’t know how I can state this more plainly: I’m talking about how Americans see the two parties, because that’s what this post seems to refer to.
If we want to stop this engine of death it’s either nuclear war or dismantling it from the inside. Having a clear understanding of domestic U.S. politics is useful; “everyone is a fascist but my True Leftist friends” is not.
The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s plantation; and this ‘holding the nose and supporting our enemies’ shit is the master’s tools; right up there with ‘turning the other cheek’.
I never liked this quote.
The plantation master’s gun shoots bullets as good as any other gun. Sure as hell seems like I can use his tools against him lol
I think the point is that you can’t dismantle the system with only the tools the system tells you to use.
That’s probably right, but it sure implies the system’s tools of oppression can’t be seized and used against our oppressors. Comes across as very anarchist.
“The master’s tools” here would be elections, the courts, and otherwise working through the institutions of bourgeois democracy. I’m not suggesting that. I’m saying that policies like abortion are material issues that Americans do care about.
The US will be dismantled from the inside when conditions for everyday Americans get bad enough that they no longer see their interests as aligning with imperialism. That’s just starting to happen, and as a matter of fact Republicans are right now the ones articulating popular anger and anti-war sentiment – hypocritically and not at all well, so you shouldn’t support them either. But it gives the lie to the “Democrats are slightly better” line, which reflected reality all through the Bush years and now doesn’t reflect reality at all.
Imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism, and American domestic politics and and American foreign policy are not separate issues. They go hand in hand. Perhaps I’m misreading The Squad, and they’re actually all brilliant politicians, who are even now working on a masterplan which will bring back the prosperity of the 50s and 60s; but even if they succeeded in doing that, it would be through foreign wars and resource extraction. (And in point of fact, that too would be impossible: American capitalism is now in its late, decadent stage where it can only produce wealth at home by destroying it elsewhere. Hemmed in by Russia and China, the American ruling class has to turn inward and undevelop the United States itself. Insofar as the Democrats are major party working within the system, they too are complicit in this).
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This post is clearly about domestic American politics. The people I’m arguing with are intentionally ignoring that contex to get angry over something no one here disagrees with them on. If they’re trying to say that we should never discuss domestic American politics because who cares, America does horrible things abroad, that’s just a ridiculous take – obviously we can talk about both.
It’s just a an extremely bad faith reading of all the comments in here that are trying to discuss what the post actually says.
I don’t think you should conclude that the response you’ve had is down to bad faith.
What would you call it when you repeatedly say Democrats are not good, and even compare them to a huge pile of shit, and then someone claims you’re defending genocide?
You need to zoom out of the USA for a few seconds and get some perspective.
This suggests democrats do oppose bad things in the first place. When masses of protesters say “defund the police” Democrats say “we’re with BLM, but we interpret “defund the police” to mean “fund the police.” The Alaska pipeline that wasn’t going to happen under trump? Biden makes it happen. Biden campaigned on climate and ended up opening up vast swathes of public land to oil drilling. The democrats said they’d be better on immigration, but they’re worse than trump. Not because trump was good, but that it gets worse every administration whichever party’s in power. They didn’t “insufficiently oppose”Iraq, they were cheerleading bush’s invasion. They don’t “insufficiently oppose” Libya, Syria, or Ukraine, they are the main force behind those wars. Both parties are terrible and it’s absurd to act like dems are “a net good if small” which is exactly the narrative you seem to be promoting. You say blue states having abortion access is a win when that’s a given, but they had the chance to codify roe and chose not to. There is a reason why more people don’t vote than do for either major party.
You’re talking about bad things Democrats do. I’m not arguing with any of that. I’ve said multiple times that Democrats are not good.
What I’m talking about is the few good things Democrats do, and the areas where just being a warm body who’s not a Republican makes them better (think not redefining curricula to say slavery was job training). Americans look at that stuff and see a difference between the parties, and to argue otherwise is out of touch.
Imagine two huge piles of shit, but one has a $20 bill in it and the other had a used needle. People here keep saying “they’re both piles of shit!,” which I agree with. What I disagree with is the idea that both piles are exactly the same. If you really need twenty bucks and you can choose one or the other, the difference is obvious.
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No one is saying the few good things Democrats do means they’re a good party. You’re just picking fights.
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Then go be angry in a thread where that’s actually happening
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I’m frankly not convinced they’re not a colonizer themselves with all the settler-borne mind-virus they’re peddling
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I’m out of touch with the two thirds of Americans that don’t vote democrat?
Most non-voters aren’t carefully examining all political options and making a conscientious decision to abstain from mainstream politics. They’re not voting for material reasons, like:
So if they were examining all their options voting democrat is what they should do?
Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth?
Nowhere in this thread am I saying anything like “voting for Democrats is the best option.” I’m saying (for about the 30th time now) that there are real, material benefits Democrats provide over Republicans. Saying there is no difference between paid sick leave or no paid sick leave, or abortion access or no abortion access, makes us look stupid or out of touch.
I look forward to having to explain for the 30th time that this does not make Democrats good, does not excuse what Democrats support abroad, and these are not even things Democrats universally support. Can’t wait to argue over more stuff I’m not even saying.
If there are real material benefits democrats provide over the alternative isn’t the logical conclusion from that that democrats are better than republicans and worth supporting as a “lesser evil?” If there are two groups and one kills 19 people and another kills 20 but gives a couple random people ten dollars do you say “yes both killed people, but the second group made a material difference in some other people’s lives, you’ve got to acknowledge that, stop pretending they’re the same?”
You know this is a bullshit argument. Do you see how dishonest it is to know it’s bullshit and try to pin it on someone who’s is not even close to making it?
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The material reality to Americans is that they can get an abortion in California and not Florida because of party control. They have paid sick leave in Minnesota but not Texas for the same reason.
I’m talking about their material reality because the post is about domestic U.S. politics.
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Yeah and if you count up all the material things each party does for Americans, Democrats come out ahead. You don’t have to walk sixth graders through stuff like this.
Oh no it isn’t. That seems to be your fundamental false premise here. A sizeable majority of the working class in America support the Democrats, the most warmongering party in the US. They are owed no solidarity from us for this.
This is not even what I’m talking about, but it’s also totally out of step with AES states’ approach to the American working class.
You can point out what the average American thinks without arguing we need to tail it and call it correct.
Good thing I’m not doing that
If you’re not doing that then stop being defensive. Based on the positions that you’ve denied we should be in agreement. Just accept what we’re saying and move on. All you seem to be arguing now is that you didn’t say what you implied.
You’re supporting genocide!
“I’m not doing anything like that, read what I’m saying”
Why so defensive???
You keep being defensive and saying that we are lying about what you are saying, but since so many of us drew that conclusion it should be clear that your statements could imply that “we need to support democrats because they are slightly better than Republicans.” If that is truly not your position then we have nothing to argue about except how your statements were interpreted. Why don’t you just say “I agree with what you are saying, and I never meant to imply the position you interpreted me to have?”
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Good thing I didn’t do that!
If you don’t want to sound like that then stop defending democrats as slightly better than republicans.