You’re certainly adding on a lot of shit that Communists have never suggested. Communism would have scarcity
Your understanding of Marxism is limited and it shows here, which is ironic for a Marxist. One of the biggest selling points of communism that Marx and Engels kept bringing up was that communism would either greatly mitigate or entirely eliminate scarcity. They argued that the technological advancements brought by the transitional phase would generate a rapid development in advanced technologies that would increase production and efficiency, and this technology would be one of the things that characterizes communism. They also argued that
public property
I actually meant to write private property, but that’s besides the point.
disagreements on ideas, and more.
Let’s suppose in a hypothetical world where the communist utopia is possible and is achieved, okay? Okay, now let’s suppose there’s a significant group of people who don’t like it and want to reimplement capitalism. What would happen to those people? Can they voluntarily opt of communism? If that’s the case then what’s the point of the violent revolution and the tyrannical transitional state? If it was on voluntary basis, then there wouldn’t be a need for those. So the face that they are integral part of the ideology proves that communism is not voluntary. If that’s the case then communism then who’s going to keep these people in line? The military? Perhaps the police? Well, it can’t be either because both got “withered” away.
The reality is that there would be no state enforcement, so any significant degree of disagreement would snap the utopia in half. Marx envisioned a communist society to be governed by decentralized, participatory decision-making by local communities… that’s not going to be effective against wide scale disagreements. Unless the majority of people decide to abandon the communist utopia to bring back the transitional state to squash the disagreements, the idea will simply break. Communism is a flawed idea to its very core.
You’re correct in saying it would no longer have the oppressive elements of the state, nor would it have Money or classes, but the way that works is via tracking labor inputs and outputs. Marx makes it pretty clear in Critique of the Gotha Programme. You added on a bunch of unsupported baggage and said your fantasy version of a proposed society can’t exist.
Wtf are you talking about? The idea of communism is ultimately have labor and resources to be distributed from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. The idea might in a very technical sense get rid of classes or money, but it is NOT a replacement for things like not having social order. Just apply basic common sense here:
Carl: murders someone
Paul: Caaaaaaarl why did murder that person
Carl: “because I felt like it”
Paul: “I’m going to report you to my local direct democracy communist council”
Paul: goes to the council and explains the murder
The council: “We hear what you’re saying Paul, but check out these spreadsheets of our labor inputs and outputs”
Like what? Are you actually out of touch enough to think this is a proper way to run a society? The idea is like a comedy skit, except nobody’s laughing.
No, government does not need to actively work on dismantling their institutions. Withering away does not mean the government eating parts of itself. Redundant systems get phased out over time in the modern day all the time. Communism would have police, courts, and so forth as well.
You absolute dingleberry, what the fuck do you think phasing out means? Do you honestly think that the police or the courts are going to literally wither away like a rotting plant? No, the government would have to take steps to dismantle itself in order to get rid of the state apparatus. That’s the only way it can happen, the state is not going to magically disappear on it’s own.
Counter++
Counter = 5
Reason: Communism is not going to have police, courts, and the like. This is just what think communism is like due to your ignorance of it, this is not actually what it’s like. The communist utopia is anarchist in nature and won’t any elements of the state apparatus which includes the police and courts. There won’t be anything to maintain social order. The idea of communism is obviously stupid, but this is still very basic communism theory. You know for a MUH THEORIES guy who keeps accusing me not understanding Marxism, you sure know very little about it.
You still didn’t answer the question, where is the definitive metric that something becomes authoritarian or not?
You’re more than welcome to go to any of these indices and read their methodologies.
Mao’s cultural revolution was largely a failure, and he was democratically removed for it. Secondly, economies which have democratic participation are more democratic than Capitalist economies, which are governed by essentially warlords.
What the fuck are you talking about? Mao ruled until his death in 1976. He was never at any point removed from his position as ruler, he wasn’t even challenged by anybody to step down.
Counter++
Counter = 6
Reason: How you imagine Mao’s reign to have gone does not reflect how his reign has actually gone in reality.
It does disprove your point, Allende got couped by the US.
No, it doesn’t. You saying it is doesn’t actually make it true. This is just the proof by assertion fallacy. Keep in mind, this was the original claim:
“Marx and Engels were both very vocal and notorious authoritarians who specifically advocated for this stuff. They went out of their way to mock and criticize pacifist socialists who wanted to make progress without bloodshed via things like reform.”
In what way is the coup that ousted Allende in any way prove that they were right? Whether Allende got voted in or took over via violent revolution, the results would have been the same as he would have been ousted either way. The only difference is that if he was violent, he would’ve killed a lot more people before his ousting. Where’s the logical jump from the original claim to this? It’s just a non sequitur.
Secondly, putting the USSR and the US as equal evils and simply saying it’s fine because the USSR voted to balkanize late in its life is silly.
I didn’t say they were equals, I just said that the cold war wasn’t a one way street. It was a competition between two superpowers vying for influence and power. With that being said, when it comes to being evil, the USSR was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more evil. It’s not even a competition. The USSR is one of the most evil regimes in human history. It’s on par with Nazi Germany and the Mongol Empire under Genghis Khan. From torture to gulags to genocides to engineered famines to tyrannical censorship and oppression to democide to imperial conquest to ecological disasters to forced deportations of entire ethnic groups to so many more, and all of this was inside the Soviet Union against their own people. Outside the Soviet borders they started civil wars, overthrew governments, invaded countries, committed mass rapes, launched massive propaganda campaigns, brutally oppressed half of Europe, and the list goes on and on. Stalin literally had death battalions to genocide people, including women and children in the Baltics.
The sheer amount of genocides and massacres committed by the Soviet Union is so great that it’s both horrifying and leaves in awe at it’s scale. They might rival the British Empire or the French Empire, the only difference is that it took these empires centuries to rack up their numbers, the Soviet Union did just as much in less than a century. Russia already has a long and extensive history of genocide before the Soviet Union era, but during they just went into maximum overdrive.
The US is absolutely hated by the global south,
According to what? Where’s your source?
while Marxist revolutions were popping up all the time during the cold war, and still do at a lower rate today.
That’s because the Soviet Union was funding and propping virtually all of them. This is pretty common knowledge.
There have two Marxist insurgencies since the fall of the Soviet Union, one in Nepal and the other in Myanmar, both of which are China’s neighbors whom the Chinese been eyeing them for quite some time.
There was a clear difference in which society was better for the global south.
Yes, capitalism proved to be way, way, wayyyyy better. The global south is currently the richest it has ever been thanks to free market capitalism and the globalized economy.
The USSR collapsing via vote wasn’t due to lack of resiliance, it didn’t crumble or fail to support itself, it was killed off.
What planet do you live in? The Soviet Union collapsed precisely because it’s crumbled and it couldn’t support itself. The dissolution was just the cherry on top, but Marxism collapsed before the the oppressed had the opportunity to escape. The Soviet economy towards the end completely collapsed, the oppression and tyranny was reaching a breaking point with the people, and when Gorbachev showed that he wasn’t a cold blooded psychopath like the Soviet leaders before him… the dam finally broke.
Counter:++
Counter = 7
Reason: Your ignorant misconception of the how the USSR collapsed does not actually align with reality.
All in all, you need to check your history, and read Marx if you want to have such strong yet wrong understandings of Marxism. Even reading Critique of the Gotha Programme would help you a lot.
Your understanding of Marxism is limited and it shows here, which is ironic for a Marxist. One of the biggest selling points of communism that Marx and Engels kept bringing up was that communism would either greatly mitigate or entirely eliminate scarcity. They argued that the technological advancements brought by the transitional phase would generate a rapid development in advanced technologies that would increase production and efficiency, and this technology would be one of the things that characterizes communism. They also argued that
I actually meant to write private property, but that’s besides the point.
Let’s suppose in a hypothetical world where the communist utopia is possible and is achieved, okay? Okay, now let’s suppose there’s a significant group of people who don’t like it and want to reimplement capitalism. What would happen to those people? Can they voluntarily opt of communism? If that’s the case then what’s the point of the violent revolution and the tyrannical transitional state? If it was on voluntary basis, then there wouldn’t be a need for those. So the face that they are integral part of the ideology proves that communism is not voluntary. If that’s the case then communism then who’s going to keep these people in line? The military? Perhaps the police? Well, it can’t be either because both got “withered” away.
The reality is that there would be no state enforcement, so any significant degree of disagreement would snap the utopia in half. Marx envisioned a communist society to be governed by decentralized, participatory decision-making by local communities… that’s not going to be effective against wide scale disagreements. Unless the majority of people decide to abandon the communist utopia to bring back the transitional state to squash the disagreements, the idea will simply break. Communism is a flawed idea to its very core.
Wtf are you talking about? The idea of communism is ultimately have labor and resources to be distributed from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. The idea might in a very technical sense get rid of classes or money, but it is NOT a replacement for things like not having social order. Just apply basic common sense here:
Carl: murders someone
Paul: Caaaaaaarl why did murder that person
Carl: “because I felt like it”
Paul: “I’m going to report you to my local direct democracy communist council”
Paul: goes to the council and explains the murder
The council: “We hear what you’re saying Paul, but check out these spreadsheets of our labor inputs and outputs”
Like what? Are you actually out of touch enough to think this is a proper way to run a society? The idea is like a comedy skit, except nobody’s laughing.
You absolute dingleberry, what the fuck do you think phasing out means? Do you honestly think that the police or the courts are going to literally wither away like a rotting plant? No, the government would have to take steps to dismantle itself in order to get rid of the state apparatus. That’s the only way it can happen, the state is not going to magically disappear on it’s own.
Counter++
Counter = 5
Reason: Communism is not going to have police, courts, and the like. This is just what think communism is like due to your ignorance of it, this is not actually what it’s like. The communist utopia is anarchist in nature and won’t any elements of the state apparatus which includes the police and courts. There won’t be anything to maintain social order. The idea of communism is obviously stupid, but this is still very basic communism theory. You know for a MUH THEORIES guy who keeps accusing me not understanding Marxism, you sure know very little about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices
You’re more than welcome to go to any of these indices and read their methodologies.
What the fuck are you talking about? Mao ruled until his death in 1976. He was never at any point removed from his position as ruler, he wasn’t even challenged by anybody to step down.
Counter++
Counter = 6
Reason: How you imagine Mao’s reign to have gone does not reflect how his reign has actually gone in reality.
No, it doesn’t. You saying it is doesn’t actually make it true. This is just the proof by assertion fallacy. Keep in mind, this was the original claim:
“Marx and Engels were both very vocal and notorious authoritarians who specifically advocated for this stuff. They went out of their way to mock and criticize pacifist socialists who wanted to make progress without bloodshed via things like reform.”
In what way is the coup that ousted Allende in any way prove that they were right? Whether Allende got voted in or took over via violent revolution, the results would have been the same as he would have been ousted either way. The only difference is that if he was violent, he would’ve killed a lot more people before his ousting. Where’s the logical jump from the original claim to this? It’s just a non sequitur.
I didn’t say they were equals, I just said that the cold war wasn’t a one way street. It was a competition between two superpowers vying for influence and power. With that being said, when it comes to being evil, the USSR was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more evil. It’s not even a competition. The USSR is one of the most evil regimes in human history. It’s on par with Nazi Germany and the Mongol Empire under Genghis Khan. From torture to gulags to genocides to engineered famines to tyrannical censorship and oppression to democide to imperial conquest to ecological disasters to forced deportations of entire ethnic groups to so many more, and all of this was inside the Soviet Union against their own people. Outside the Soviet borders they started civil wars, overthrew governments, invaded countries, committed mass rapes, launched massive propaganda campaigns, brutally oppressed half of Europe, and the list goes on and on. Stalin literally had death battalions to genocide people, including women and children in the Baltics.
The sheer amount of genocides and massacres committed by the Soviet Union is so great that it’s both horrifying and leaves in awe at it’s scale. They might rival the British Empire or the French Empire, the only difference is that it took these empires centuries to rack up their numbers, the Soviet Union did just as much in less than a century. Russia already has a long and extensive history of genocide before the Soviet Union era, but during they just went into maximum overdrive.
According to what? Where’s your source?
That’s because the Soviet Union was funding and propping virtually all of them. This is pretty common knowledge.
There have two Marxist insurgencies since the fall of the Soviet Union, one in Nepal and the other in Myanmar, both of which are China’s neighbors whom the Chinese been eyeing them for quite some time.
Yes, capitalism proved to be way, way, wayyyyy better. The global south is currently the richest it has ever been thanks to free market capitalism and the globalized economy.
What planet do you live in? The Soviet Union collapsed precisely because it’s crumbled and it couldn’t support itself. The dissolution was just the cherry on top, but Marxism collapsed before the the oppressed had the opportunity to escape. The Soviet economy towards the end completely collapsed, the oppression and tyranny was reaching a breaking point with the people, and when Gorbachev showed that he wasn’t a cold blooded psychopath like the Soviet leaders before him… the dam finally broke.
Counter:++
Counter = 7
Reason: Your ignorant misconception of the how the USSR collapsed does not actually align with reality.
You make me so tired…
2/2