Trump would do the same thing but in his case it means letting Bibi level Gaza and then buying some land to build a tacky resort on it.
Yeah stopping the slaughter is better than completing it.
Oh thank fuck
We’re not in a vacuum. Two things can be true. She can honestly be pro Israel but also hope the turds that are the Likud Party lose power, work to end the genocide, and find a two-state solution - that is, if Hamas and Bibi will allow it, which they won’t.
This binary all-or-nothing, zero sum bs is just toxic and ignorant.
Yeah it’s clear she wants a two state solution.
She can honestly be pro Israel but also hope the turds that are the Likud Party lose
I’m not invested in the Likud Party losing if the war continues to expand and drag on.
The issue isn’t with her “pro-Israel” policy, it’s with her “pro-Genocide” policy. That’s what’s driving the protests.
And that’s the rub. Is she really ‘pro genocide’? That is the question
Apparently no one in the comments has been paying attention. She’s been saying these same lines about Gaza since the convention speech.
There’s been a lot of FUD about it and .ml has been running wild denying anything even remotely pro peace from her.
At any rate literally all we need at this point is a president that tells Netanyahu he either accepts a negotiated return of remaining hostages and withdraws or he loses our weapons support.
But Biden is also doing his best to pump up their ammo supply so the next president actually doesn’t have the influence Biden could have had. It’s 2024 and I’m ashamed we didn’t learn from supporting South Africa and Iran into the flames. They’ve been shamelessly giving Israel our best military technology with no regard to their political situation. College students called this as the most likely path 2 decades ago, and here we are appearing to be caught by surprise.
Fun fact, there’s a 2008 law that specifically forces the president to give Israel all the best military hardware.
It was passed by W on his way out the door, and due to the Democratic party being compromised as hell, there’s never been enough votes to get rid of it, and any time the president might want to hold things back, they get sued under that law.
Biden and Obama both could have used the leahy law on day one. We have evidence going that far back that Israel systematically commits war crimes, including occupying Palestine in an illegal manner. To be clear there is a way they could have done it legally. But things including extending their own, civilian, legal system into the occupied areas preclude it being legal.
It’s 2024 and I’m ashamed we didn’t learn from supporting South Africa and Iran into the flames.
We did learn. Just all the wrong lessons. Iran taught us that you can ride a wave of hate for 50 years. South Africa taught us that you crack down on the BDS movement day one and keep the media on lock for your Apartheid friends.
I hate that you’re right. I want to live in a country that’s actually moral.
The genocide in Gaza.
It is not useful for Harris to call the genocide a genocide because it would hurt her chances of being elected. If Trump is elected instead of Harris, the genocide will continue until all Palestinians are dead.
Since we want the genocide to end before all Palestinians are dead it is not useful to demand that Harris calls the genocide a genocide because that hurts the chances of the genocide ending while Palestinians are still alive.
I understand how politics works, and I can understand some of the many complications and consequences involved, but words have meaning, and meaning conveys truth.
So if you want to represent the nuanced, complex (one sided) world of real politik, then that is certainly a good exercise. “in my power” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, especially since she’s committed to, let’s say, bend the truth quite a bit with this sentence.
But skepticism alone isn’t analysis. I think by saying this she is trying to lure over “Uncommitted” conscientious objectors who are on the fence and may withhold their vote. But by not speaking strongly enough, she will never reach the vast majority of those people. This assurance feels empty to me. She’s not an ardent supporter of Palestinians, but who can see the future? Events are rapid and things change, "We exist in a context, all that.
But there are disadvantages to people only taking political action by way of their votes, and maybe this is one of them.
I hope she wins. But if she doesn’t the dems will blame those same voters, along with Greens (which, whatever) and any other third party voters instead of coming to grips with their many many failings over the last 8 - 10 years.
So if you want to represent the nuanced, complex (one sided) world of real politik, then that is certainly a good exercise.
No, unlike your argument, I’m not arguing we split hairs over semantics.
she will never reach the vast majority of those people.
Unless.
She committed to ending the war in Gaza. If the war ends, the genocide ends. Tell people.
No she committed to do everything in her power to end the war. Very different. Sometimes “splitting hairs” isn’t just semantically, especially when it is political. Tell People.
Your argument is splitting hairs. If you care about the Palestinian people then tell people the truth. Harris wants to end the war in Gaza. Trump wants Israel to finish the job. Tomorrow is election day. It’s time to help the Palestinian people in the most useful way we can. By getting Kamala Harris and Tim Walz elected. Splitting hairs over Harris’ words is not useful.
Way to stay on message
Since we want the genocide to end before all Palestinians are dead it is not useful to demand that Harris calls the genocide a genocide
Fucking liberalism in a nutshell.
No, it’s utility. The idea that we can achieve our goals despite not currently having leftists and socialists in power. Not wanting to get your hands dirty isn’t even a political position.
No idea how you plan to achieve your goals when your first step is Holocaust denial.
Genocide and war aren’t mutually exclusive. The Holocaust happened during WWII.
This reads as a joke but it’s actually true 😂
Save your hollow words. I already voted for Jill Stein.
You voted for trump without admitting to it. The terrible reality of first past the post is the enemy here:
We need a system that doesn’t convert votes for the candidate you want into a vote for who you hate the most. It’s awful being bound to crappy rules.
The Palestinians have taken to the streets to sing songs in your honor. You’ve saved them!
Nah, they’ve already been good and thoroughly fucked by your Lord and Savior and Daddy Biden
You, and people like you, really need to open a history book. Make sure to cross reference with past foreign relations strategies.
We can start with the first Nakba
Bibi hates her, so that’s a good start.
Considering that him and Trump talk all the time, I would say he isn’t excited for Harris. He knows when the war is over, he is fucked. Remember, he tried to remove their supreme court before the war.
It’s completely in her power to stop whitewashing a genocide and creating false equivalences by calling it a “war”.
Not if she wants to get elected. I’ve said since the convention that they’re trying their best to not piss off either side and that’s mostly been their strategy. Even when she’s releasing statements on the death of Hamas and Hezbollah leaders she’s very careful to say, as an American leader, I’m glad this dude, who killed Americans, is dead.
Of course that was evidence of her being a flaming Zionist to people who want Trump elected.
Not until after the election. She’s walking a wire trying to get nonMAGA republicans to vote for her in order to save Democracy. They need to at least pretend to believe she won’t completely abandon Israel. If she can beat Trump, she’ll then be free to call a genocide a genocide. In any case, Trump wants to end the war by letting his buddy Bibi nuke Gaza and just fucking kill all the Palestinians. A “final solution” as it were.
Like her ads I’m sure she has a more pro Israel slant in other cities.
Seems a little too little too late for it to move the needle much, especially given how much early voting has happened. Harris’s position on Israel has been so bizarre, pretty sure Israel has even been actively working against Democrats this whole time anyways.
IIRC she said she wouldn’t remain silent, and then didn’t really say anything committal or concrete.
Way to late and it’s ridiculous she waited till desperation to take a good stance.
Peace has always been her call. We have yet to see how she would work for it because she isn’t in the hot seat yet. We have a choice between someone calling for peace, but not really pro Palestinian, and someone calling for ultra death squads.
Grow up.
With early voting and the roar of everything this is too late to make a huge wave difference I think.
What’s up with the grow up comment. I’m just talking about the strategy being ineffective. It’s completely random.
It’s basically the same pattern Biden followed. Even when he did fits and starts of good things, it was way too late and only felt like he was doing it for political reasons, not because he had a change of heart.
Biden very clearly was saying things to try and keep a lid on domestic unrest. He literally parroted, (and still does) whatever Netanyahu says. Then he always blames Hamas for Netanyahu tossing in a known deal breaker at the last minute, (occupation of Gaza), even though Biden said he doesn’t want that either.
Biden’s entire conduct over Israel has been in bad faith.
Harris could not possibly have the same line as Biden so far because she doesn’t have control over weapons shipments or negotiations. All she can do is call for peace, and yeah those calls get tainted when your boss is saying the exact same stuff in bad faith. But if we aren’t smart enough to realize she cannot possibly be operating in bad faith at his level until January 20th, then we deserve everything we get.
3rd party voters: “I’m not voting for Harris until she condemns the Gaza war!”
Harris: *says she condemns the Gaza war*
3rd party voters: *desperate scrambling sounds to find something else to be a single issue contrarian*
I’m really hoping I’m wrong about that, but I’m seeing it on this thread.
Third-party voters as a whole don’t matter nearly as much as the handful of Muslims in Michigan that this message is directed towards. Also, this message is not significantly different than what she’s been saying since the DNC. Her big misstep wasn’t her messaging on Gaza; it was ignoring the Uncommitted leaders entirely.
Have you been to a protest or talked to pro-Palestinian voices. The demand has always been to stop weapons shipments to Israel, even before October 7th. This isn’t moving the goal posts, the goal posts have been there for decades, it’s just both parties have and continue to ignore them.
I mean for context something like 70 million early voters already cast their ballot, so this quite literally cannot change their vote and that number is roughly half of the entire votes cast the entire last election. So in all likelihood, roughly half the people you’re mad at can’t react at all because of how long she waited.
They do not want to condemn the war.
The want to end the genocide.
there goes the goalposts
No, the goal post has always been that she’ll enforce America’s laws regarding weapon shipments until israel behaves. This is not that. This ‘ill continue the Biden policy of committing a genocide and periodically send sternly worded letters that do nothing.’.followed by ‘israel has a right to defend itself’ platitudes.
Harris needs to commit. And this is not that. No goal posts have been moved. Shes trotted out some tokens and said the same thing shes said every time.
Empty rhetoric about “war” has never been a worthwhile “goalpost”. We’ve had more than a year of that already from genocide joe.
It’s always been about ending the genocide and reversing zionism more generally.
Debunking the strawman is not moving the goalpost.
You do not get to set the demands for other voters. And then pretend they have been met when they are clearly not.
Was she supposed to single-handedly end the war in Gaza as VP to earn your vote, or does she specifically need to declare war on Israel to satisfy you? You gotta know that isn’t a winning campaign promise.
Aren’t most polls against the genocide, so it would’ve helped? Even the goalposts you’re providing don’t acknowledge it as a genocide.
Why should they give a fuck about your “demands” when you change them immediately once met?
The demands haven’t changed. They’ve always been, and this is really quite simple; stop sending weapons to Israel while it’s engaging in genocide. The goalposts have not shifted.
Kamala already promised not to impose a weapons embargo on Israel. She still does not call it a genocide. No demands have been met.
What does she mean by everything in her power? Nuking Gaza so the “war” ends? Send in the American military to fight in Gaza?
Liberals will see no problem choosing polite, handwringing genocide over rowdy, bombastic genocide. They fall so easily for style points and optics completely devoid of substance.
20 years from now, when the only choices are between a dem who wants 20 genocide and a republican who wants 21, liberals will still be frothing at the mouths, blaming anti-genocide leftists for the country’s devoluton into fascism. This is the logical conclusion of liberal “pragmatic utilitarianism”
In biology, one learns about a certain species of caterpillar that can only cross the threshold of metamorphosis by seeing its future butterfly. Proletarian subjectivity does not evolve by incremental steps but requires nonlinear leaps, especially by way of moral self-recognition through solidarity with the struggle of a distant people. Even when this contradicts short-term self-interest, as in the famous cases of Lancashire cotton workers’ enthusiasm for Lincoln and later for Gandhi, such efforts not only anticipate a world beyond capitalism, they concretely advance the working class’s march toward it.
Socialism, in other words, requires nonutilitarian actors, whose ultimate motivations and values arise from structures of feeling that others would deem spiritual. Marx rightly scourged romantic humanism in the abstract, but his personal pantheon — Prometheus and Spartacus, Homer, Cervantes, and Shakespeare — affirmed a heroic vision of human possibility. But can that possibility be realized in today’s world, a world where the “old working class” has been demoted in agency?
-Mike Davis
You’re still not saying the magic words harris. Repeat after me: ‘i will enforce american laws regarding war crimes until israel obeys international laws regarding war crimes and genocide’. You’ve waited too long and i doubt you’ll do it before you need to tomorrow.
Its easy to see how she’s more focused on the israel hostages than Palestinian population, a group who as our own diplomatic core has informed the admin shes a part of, will be returned in a ceasefire agreement. Hamas already agreed to return them, at least before israel starting offing those leaders first. Only israel is the issue.
Actually I’m pretty sure you just demanded that she look into the disagreement in Israel. Which she did, so you owe her now. Stop changing your demands! It’s your fault they ignore the left. /s
child, shes well aware of whats going on in gaza. they, the biden admin, knows exactly the situation and they know its a genocide. They’ve known most of this year. I certainly didn’t demand she look into it. I’m demanding she apply the US law as written to israel.
Sorry to have accidentally trolled you, I was being sarcastic.
I’ve already voted for her, but I don’t believe her.
This is a vague plea for peace without any indication of what things she believes (and more importantly, publicly acknowledges) would be “in her power”. Is the limit of her power sternly worded letters, arms embargoes, or intervention? Because I’m pretty sue she’s not opening the door for US peacekeeping troops in Gaza, though that would be in her power (at least for a short term).
But like, with Harris we get to see if she’s willing to do anything meaningful, and maybe as public sentiment continues to turn against Israel she’ll be embarrassed enough to do something. It’s not a hopeful position to shoot for, but it is technically better than the alternative, and there other issues at play where the difference is not so limited.
The campaign has been changing its tone depending on audience. In places like Michigan they’re doing this, but outside seing districts they’ve been banging the war drums for Israel.
So the lack of faith in the messaging isn’t without warrant.
Yes specifically when they think her ads in different states with different messaging are not going to be shown around.
https://www.foxnews.com/video/6364100748112
She represent the regular two faced career politician, which should work in regular election, but the Israel genocidal work in Gaza and war crimes expose these politician.
You linked to faux news. So i will not click the link nor does anything that you said have any meaning.
This is just a stupid take because almost all news agency are own by someone trying to push different agenda.
Yes okay a biased “news agency” would be fine. But faux news is just that, fake news.
Literal last minute shilling bruh
If she had said this once like even 2 weeks ago, people might have actually listened
Oh, a candidate said what they’d do in office?
R - he tells it like it is
D - shilling
Got it. Blocked, troll.
Never even mentioned Republicans.
My point is she spent her entire campaign ignoring this problem until literally the last minute.
People already voted on Sunday in Michigan. Even if you think this would have changed people’s minds, she could have said it 2 days ago and still had more effect.
Bullshit, she’s been saying basically that same sequence of lines, starting with the convention speech (maybe even before but I don’t remember), at rallies and in some interviews. I think her saying it with protesters shouting at the rally made the media hype it up a bit more, but what she said yesterday is pretty much the same lines she’s used on the topic the whole campaign.
The only variation has been the first few words. She started out with “Now is the time to …blah blah blah” to “I will work hard to … blah blah” to now “I will do everything in my power to …blah blah”. After that intro phrase, the rest of the lines have been the same every time.
Finally some positive words now for acting on it, if she gets a chance.
In a presidential democracy she has all the power if she wants it.
