Is there any veracity to the claim that “the PSL covered up SA allegations”? I hear it a lot in discussions surrounding the PSL. I wanna know if this is a valid concern

    • MarxMadness@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
      11·
      13 days ago

      I saw two relevant links there.

      This one is an account of someone who helped someone else accuse a PSL member of misogyny and sexual misconduct. The author later accuses the PSL of trying to cover this up. The accusation appears to be:

      She told me that she had just caught S* cheating the night before and was kicking him out. She detailed to me the past events, of him cheating on her with M*, of coercing her into unprotected sex, constantly leaving in the middle of the night to go “patrol M*’s house” but coming back drunk, etc.

      Taking all of this at face value, it’s one accusation that rises to the level of something the PSL would want to investigate (one member coercing another into unprotected sex) and a mix of things I’m not sure an organization needs to investigate at all (cheating, being drunk at night).

      I haven’t read the entire post, but I did read the text screenshots the author provided of conversations they had with the PSL. It looks like the PSL investigators kept asking for documentation relevant to the accusations (additional screenshots) that didn’t seem to be provided, and aren’t included in this tell-all post. If you start an investigation, ask for corroboration the accuser says exists, and they don’t provide it, I don’t think it’s a cover up if you close the investigation.

      This is the second link, but it’s not working well enough for me to read it.

      • Muad'Dibber@lemmygrad.ml
        13·
        13 days ago

        This whole thing reeks of anarchist-style wrecking, and ppl elevating a relationship breakup to try to take down a nationwide party.

        • darkcalling@lemmygrad.ml
          71·
          13 days ago

          Yeah. And honestly western intel loves using progressive sounding things to attack the left. They used fabricated rape allegations to try and extradite Assange for instance and if I was part of western intelligence it would be a go-to as it’s just obviously so useful.

          Now I’m sure it does happen, maybe PSL even has a big problem with it, maybe but on the other hand a certain skepticism is necessary balanced with the knowledge that for example Trots tend to form cults full of sexual abuse and predation. Any time you have members romancing and having sexual relations with others you’re going to eventually end up with drama and accusations from people hurting each other intentionally or not and lashing out harshly in the aftermath of that hurt. Add in western intelligence, wreckers who aren’t even paid, etc and you have a formula for disaster.

          Isn’t it interesting too that this thread pops up on election day when many here and linked instances might be thinking of voting for PSL’s candidates? A little propaganda push at the last minute to push people to vote Democrat instead. The timing is unacceptable and I think for that reason it reeks of manipulation and even would be fair target for a lock and sinking until the election is over as the time to bring this up was a week ago as we’ve been discussing supporting PSL’s candidate for months and only now is this deployed for maximum damage and disillusionment.

          In fact that’s what I suggest. Locking this and banning discussion on it until this evening. These people are attempting to cause the drama and dissuade people from voting for the only socialist, anti-imperialist party on the ballot is disgusting behavior. If people had issues they had plenty of time in the lead-up to vent while giving PSL’s supporters time to respond. Instead this is deployed at the 11th hour to obviously suppress enthusiasm for the party on the ballot in the US on vote day. That’s wrecker behavior, that’s bad faith.

            • darkcalling@lemmygrad.ml
              51·
              13 days ago

              Actually you’re right, my apologies.

              Any acknowledgement of fucking rape is actually just a cynical ploy to make a party that was never going to win the election lose the election.

              Quoting here because this person admits they delete most of their comments after a week and I want context for my replies.

              Calm the fuck down. Stop acting foolish.

              There is a time and place for all things. Any other day, any day outside of today and maybe yesterday. Most of the year is an appropriate time. This day of all days is not okay. Cry about it because for one lousy day or two I think it’s inappropriate to air this stuff given it doesn’t even personally involve violations by the candidates and is just hurting them by association.

              I don’t think that’s extreme. Given these are not new accusations, dredging them up at this moment is clearly sabotage meant to harm the votes they get and enthusiasm for the party and the larger movement. Again, it’s fine to discuss these at a reasonable time and place. Unlike the Democrats whose reasonable time and place for dissension from their party is a few weeks every 2 years between midterms the time for this IMO is just about every day except election day and the days immediately before it. There have been months of time to bring this up during which I wouldn’t bring these accusations, if they made these 24 hours later I also wouldn’t care. But they didn’t do that. They deployed them strategically at the worst possible moment. And when they’ve had all this time, months and months and years to discuss this given it wasn’t a surprise Cruz is who we’re voting for and she’s PSL the fact they waited until now is not right.

          • darkcalling@lemmygrad.ml
            5·
            13 days ago

            I still think PSL is the better of the U$ parties, but I think it’s a mistake to not acknowledge that they have issues.

            On election day of all days? And none of you people see this as an obvious attempt to suppress the vote support for PSL?

            We are not a PSL instance, we are not run by PSL. But I will point out that there are certain aspects of Dem-Cent that might be helpful to understand. Namely that once a decision is made by the party the party adheres to that line in public. They do not break ranks or show dissension. Now we could say that the US as a whole has failed to field any other socialist party and therefore we as a whole as a movement have elected PSL as our representatives.

            We don’t owe them adhering to their party line if we’re not members but I think we owe them not criticizing them, being tactful in our timing of criticism of them not to do so at the last minute in a way that inflames feelings against voting for them on election day.

            Just as we do not criticize and air our problems with say Iran on the day they are at the height of danger and anti-western propaganda for a war against them, it’s wise not to air our problems with PSL on this fucking day when all the signature work they’ve done to get on the ballot is on the fucking line.

            Because there isn’t time for many people to sort through those feelings and act dispassionately and the concrete impact of a post like this on election day mere hours before some people vote is people will avoid voting for PSL on the national ballot because of this and feeling icky if they do so.

            So OP is costing the movement visible support. They are an enemy of socialism in my mind even if an unintentional one. Socialists need to be more mindful and thoughtful than OP has shown themselves capable of being.

            No one, least of all me is saying we can’t ever talk about this, that we have to be silent on this or that we can’t criticize PSL. What I am saying is the time for this discussion was 48+ hours ago or 24 hours from now. That’s a lot of time (this is no secret, we’ve known PSL would be the US candidate on the national level for 6+ months) and it’s telling this question was deployed NOW. Not earlier when there was time and passions would recede and people would still make the logical choice to vote PSL as Marxists, but now when it can inflict maximum damage and suppression and cause maximum drama and strife.

              • darkcalling@lemmygrad.ml
                5·
                13 days ago

                but I’m letting my emotions run heavy.

                Which is exactly the problem with this post on this day and my entire point. Thanks for making it for me again.

                It doesn’t matter the scale. What matters is the problem it causes. If they dissuade 10,000 people and swing a state for Kamala is it a problem then? When is it a problem? The fact is we’re not going to win. But the fact is the point isn’t to win but to do enough damage to the major parties that people take notice and look into it. PSL volunteers sweated hard getting signatures to get on the ballot in so many states and you’re just saying their effort was wasted. That it doesn’t matter. That it’s okay to throw it away. Anyways to my point, any suppression of support, especially on a platform like this on a day like today is not okay. It attacks the work of those people.

                Also PSL is nowhere near the issues of CPUSA. One that regularly tails Democrats and embraces lesser evilism. On a theoretical basis CPUSA is not even in the running to be a vanguard or a party people can look to given its national leadership. I don’t care for arguments about oh local branches this or that, I’ve seen the same thing with DSA and the fact is national has too much power for that to ever really matter.