So independent of any woo-woo, tarot cards are designed to be a potent conceptual microcosm. That means that when you shuffle the cards and do a reading, with a decent understanding of what each of the cards represents, you essentially make a little randomly generated conceptual perspective through which to view the problem. Extremely helpful for shaking out of an established mindset, finding an unexpected angle which reveals connections you hadn’t considered.
I can’t really speak to astrology, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it turns out to be approximately accurate for some reason other than the stars themselves. Perhaps the changing temperatures of the seasons have a slightly noticeable effect on natal development.
Astrology is only accurate in that everything it says is vague and easily interpretable in multiple ways.
A teacher did an experiment where he handed his class custom astrology reports based on their birthdate, and asked them to rate how well they fit each of them. Everyone gave it a high rating, and said it was very accurate. He had them pass the paper to a different student, and everyone laughed because everyone got the exact same astrology report.
Certainly sometimes, not always. I was convinced to get a “proper” chart done, and the results were more specific and accurate than I expected. Certainly not vague newspaper predictions. I’m not going to claim the whole practice is authentic, but like I said I wouldn’t be surprised if it turns out to have some actual correspondence to some unknown tangible cause unrelated to the stars.
That’s not the basis of a good prediction. Imagine flipping a coin. You can “guess” the answer with 50% accuracy by just choosing heads each time.
But that’s cheating you say? You could also get 50% accuracy by just flipping another coin and using that choice. Or just choosing the opposite that just appeared (heads, tails, heads, etc.). That’s not good enough for a prediction.
Once more, not saying the stars have anything to do with, except that they’re in the sky in a particular time of year. If astrology is based on anything, it’s probably the effects of the seasons.
So because facebook can place ads that are vague and general, does that mean that they also have some sort of scientific correlation to predicting the future? Yes right? i mean, it could be true, that your computer is reading your mind and putting this up there, your horoscope? also created by your laptop reading your brainwaves that are bouncing off the cats sonar dish outside, its possible.
We’ve wandered pretty far from the topic. None of that follows from anything I said.
Nonetheless, are those hypotheses possible? Sure. Likely? Probably not. But there’s a chasm of difference between “extremely unlikely” and “absolutely false”. Understanding the limitations of your knowledge, both incidental and fundamental, is central to successful scientific inquiry.
Nope, astrologers are masters at making vague answers sound specific. But they are still vague and interpretable in multiple ways, even in your proper chart.
No, that’s all astrology is. Whenever it’s been put to the test it has been found to have no supernatural or real predictive power. Just vague statements, and reader bias.
Testing is the important part. Imo, the reason astrology persists is because of the lottery effect. One person out of 12 gets the perfect reading so promotes astrology as working when they were just lucky.
Certainty is unscientific and illogical. The scientific method cannot prove anything. It simply tests hypotheses to develop models. Every model is wrong, but some are more useful than others. Conflating the discovery of a useful model with absolute certainty isn’t science, it’s scientific fundamentalism, a cancer that eats your brain.
Nothing can be said scientifically about the truth or falsity of any claim. Science can only day that the evidence gathered in a particular experimental setup is consistent or inconsistent with a hypothesis.
I had some friends do astrology readings for themselves that depended on the exact time they were born. I asked one of them about how they accounted for time zones and DST. (They didn’t.) I may have gotten my point across.
I’m seeing a lot of deeply unscientific arguments in these comments. This “Cult of Science” mentality is a concerning trend, where instead of thinking rationally and scientifically about something, people blindly follow whatever the contemporary consensus is. Your friends using poor methodology is not a rational argument against a field, any more than solving a math problem incorrectly invalidates math.
For what feels like the tenth time: I don’t believe any star (other than the sun) has any direct significant effect on a person. However, correlation isn’t causation. I do believe that it is possible that there might be other factors which vary over the course of the year which may have some effect, and that those variations can be coincidentally correlated to the zodiac phases as a convenient reference.
I was just picking one critique that was easy to make without additional supporting evidence.
What you’re saying about astrology possibly working is just wrong. It has been studied and found to have no predictive power, a fact you easily verify for yourself by spending a few minutes with Google.
You’ve got a lot of nerve calling people unscientific while simultaneously defending one of the most thoroughly debunked pseudosciences in existence.
I doubt even the Earth’s rotation being completely out of phase due to inputting the wrong time will have any meaningful impact. The diameter of the Earth (7,917.5 miles) is extremely small relative to the distance to other planets. For instance, the average distance to Jupiter is 394.29 million miles away.
There’s also the position of the Earth relative to the sun. I assume that’s what the astrologers are pretending to account for, since that’s what knowing the date tells them.
Yes, the Sun is pretty darn far away too (93 million miles on average). Let’s say the date and time used as an input to their astrology algorithm is off by 12 hours, since this would place them on the other side of the Earth for a given day (7917.5 miles away). This represents only a 0.0085% and 0.0020% error in the distance to the Sun and Jupiter, respectively.
What I’m saying is that calling out errors in DST and time zone is not a very scientific debunk of your friend’s interest. I’m not a practitioner of astrology myself. However, I like to keep an open mind on nearly any topic, especially on something as harmless as astrology. I hope your friend didn’t take the criticism too hard. It’s always a bummer to find an interest or hobby that brings you joy, just to have it torn down by someone who you respect.
Also, just this week I saw an article posted on Lemmy about how studies show a full moon negatively impacts sleep quality, even if you are in a room with no windows and can’t be influenced by the additional light. There’s clearly still things about gravitational bodies we don’t yet understand.
I don’t see it as harmless at all. It promotes belief in other pseudoscience, like various kinds of alternative medicine. People literally die from using fake medicine instead of real medicine. It’s also a scam, and I hate scams.
You’re also missing that the astrology book itself is where the idea came from that the exact time of a person’s birth is important to making accurate predictions. If anything, your commentary about the time being irrelevant is an argument not just against astrology in general, but against that author in particular.
I’m not following on how it promotes belief in “other pseudoscience.” I’m also not sure who decides what is pseudoscience and what is not. I just tried to demonstrate on why the physiological influence of distance gravitational objects is still a great mystery to humanity. I fear that the assignment of these binary labels, and shutting down any discussion of alternative possibilities, is rooted in authoritarianism and is more of a threat than any possible scam.
Regarding exact dates and times, of course, the most accurate input is always preferred. The neat thing about astronomy is that we can actually calculate the approximate location of gravitational bodies at times, in both the past and the future. If you are confident that you know the time of an event to a millisecond, by all means, please use this data with all the accuracy available to you. However, even if you are wrong by a significant amount, this error does not scale linearly with the overarching calculations. I tried demonstrating this by using the absolute maximum error of our position relative to the Earth’s rotation. In sum, this error was insignificant.
I believe that the time of year people are born could well have an effect on their personality. Because so much of your personality is developed in your early years, how old you were when you had your first Xmas, or whether you were the biggest (oldest) or smallest (youngest) person in your school class and sporting team.
I don’t think this has anything actually related to the stars.
You just made an excellent argument for why tarot is inefficient given its random nature. There are healthier more logical approaches to expanding your perspectives.
Anything more and it’s less about shaking out of an established mindset and more just wanting to play pretend
Logical approaches explicitly can’t expand your perspective that way, unless you mean a different word than logic. Logic can only operate after you’ve declared your axioms. Tarot allows you to stochastically test alternative axioms. They are different tools used for different stages of the problem-solving process.
So independent of any woo-woo, tarot cards are designed to be a potent conceptual microcosm. That means that when you shuffle the cards and do a reading, with a decent understanding of what each of the cards represents, you essentially make a little randomly generated conceptual perspective through which to view the problem. Extremely helpful for shaking out of an established mindset, finding an unexpected angle which reveals connections you hadn’t considered.
I can’t really speak to astrology, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it turns out to be approximately accurate for some reason other than the stars themselves. Perhaps the changing temperatures of the seasons have a slightly noticeable effect on natal development.
Astrology is only accurate in that everything it says is vague and easily interpretable in multiple ways.
A teacher did an experiment where he handed his class custom astrology reports based on their birthdate, and asked them to rate how well they fit each of them. Everyone gave it a high rating, and said it was very accurate. He had them pass the paper to a different student, and everyone laughed because everyone got the exact same astrology report.
Mystery Hunters flashback out of nowhere. My man Doubting Dave did this experiment.
Certainly sometimes, not always. I was convinced to get a “proper” chart done, and the results were more specific and accurate than I expected. Certainly not vague newspaper predictions. I’m not going to claim the whole practice is authentic, but like I said I wouldn’t be surprised if it turns out to have some actual correspondence to some unknown tangible cause unrelated to the stars.
That’s not the basis of a good prediction. Imagine flipping a coin. You can “guess” the answer with 50% accuracy by just choosing heads each time.
But that’s cheating you say? You could also get 50% accuracy by just flipping another coin and using that choice. Or just choosing the opposite that just appeared (heads, tails, heads, etc.). That’s not good enough for a prediction.
I’m not trying to sell anyone on astrology here. All I said was sometimes it’s so vague as to to apply to anyone, but not always.
If it isn’t vague, it isn’t astrology.
They are just reading your body language and things they find online about you.
The location flaming balls of gas are have no influence on your life. Except for the sun.
It was automated so it wasn’t that.
Once more, not saying the stars have anything to do with, except that they’re in the sky in a particular time of year. If astrology is based on anything, it’s probably the effects of the seasons.
So because facebook can place ads that are vague and general, does that mean that they also have some sort of scientific correlation to predicting the future? Yes right? i mean, it could be true, that your computer is reading your mind and putting this up there, your horoscope? also created by your laptop reading your brainwaves that are bouncing off the cats sonar dish outside, its possible.
We’ve wandered pretty far from the topic. None of that follows from anything I said.
Nonetheless, are those hypotheses possible? Sure. Likely? Probably not. But there’s a chasm of difference between “extremely unlikely” and “absolutely false”. Understanding the limitations of your knowledge, both incidental and fundamental, is central to successful scientific inquiry.
Nope, astrologers are masters at making vague answers sound specific. But they are still vague and interpretable in multiple ways, even in your proper chart.
Oh, sorry, I didn’t realize you were omniscient. My mistake. Have a good day.
No, that’s all astrology is. Whenever it’s been put to the test it has been found to have no supernatural or real predictive power. Just vague statements, and reader bias.
Testing is the important part. Imo, the reason astrology persists is because of the lottery effect. One person out of 12 gets the perfect reading so promotes astrology as working when they were just lucky.
I tested it, I disagree. Or do you only respect tests that confirm your biases? Doesn’t sound very scientific to me.
Yes, you tested a conman to see if you would not fall for a con, and you fell for it. Congrats. It’s called the Barnum effect.
When actually put to the test astrology fails:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3200/genp.135.3.287-300
http://www.skepticalmedia.com/astrology/Scientific Inquiry into Astrology.pdf
https://genus.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s41118-020-00103-5
Certainty is unscientific and illogical. The scientific method cannot prove anything. It simply tests hypotheses to develop models. Every model is wrong, but some are more useful than others. Conflating the discovery of a useful model with absolute certainty isn’t science, it’s scientific fundamentalism, a cancer that eats your brain.
Nothing can be said scientifically about the truth or falsity of any claim. Science can only day that the evidence gathered in a particular experimental setup is consistent or inconsistent with a hypothesis.
I had some friends do astrology readings for themselves that depended on the exact time they were born. I asked one of them about how they accounted for time zones and DST. (They didn’t.) I may have gotten my point across.
I’m seeing a lot of deeply unscientific arguments in these comments. This “Cult of Science” mentality is a concerning trend, where instead of thinking rationally and scientifically about something, people blindly follow whatever the contemporary consensus is. Your friends using poor methodology is not a rational argument against a field, any more than solving a math problem incorrectly invalidates math.
For what feels like the tenth time: I don’t believe any star (other than the sun) has any direct significant effect on a person. However, correlation isn’t causation. I do believe that it is possible that there might be other factors which vary over the course of the year which may have some effect, and that those variations can be coincidentally correlated to the zodiac phases as a convenient reference.
I was just picking one critique that was easy to make without additional supporting evidence.
What you’re saying about astrology possibly working is just wrong. It has been studied and found to have no predictive power, a fact you easily verify for yourself by spending a few minutes with Google.
You’ve got a lot of nerve calling people unscientific while simultaneously defending one of the most thoroughly debunked pseudosciences in existence.
I doubt even the Earth’s rotation being completely out of phase due to inputting the wrong time will have any meaningful impact. The diameter of the Earth (7,917.5 miles) is extremely small relative to the distance to other planets. For instance, the average distance to Jupiter is 394.29 million miles away.
There’s also the position of the Earth relative to the sun. I assume that’s what the astrologers are pretending to account for, since that’s what knowing the date tells them.
Yes, the Sun is pretty darn far away too (93 million miles on average). Let’s say the date and time used as an input to their astrology algorithm is off by 12 hours, since this would place them on the other side of the Earth for a given day (7917.5 miles away). This represents only a 0.0085% and 0.0020% error in the distance to the Sun and Jupiter, respectively.
What I’m saying is that calling out errors in DST and time zone is not a very scientific debunk of your friend’s interest. I’m not a practitioner of astrology myself. However, I like to keep an open mind on nearly any topic, especially on something as harmless as astrology. I hope your friend didn’t take the criticism too hard. It’s always a bummer to find an interest or hobby that brings you joy, just to have it torn down by someone who you respect.
Also, just this week I saw an article posted on Lemmy about how studies show a full moon negatively impacts sleep quality, even if you are in a room with no windows and can’t be influenced by the additional light. There’s clearly still things about gravitational bodies we don’t yet understand.
I don’t see it as harmless at all. It promotes belief in other pseudoscience, like various kinds of alternative medicine. People literally die from using fake medicine instead of real medicine. It’s also a scam, and I hate scams.
You’re also missing that the astrology book itself is where the idea came from that the exact time of a person’s birth is important to making accurate predictions. If anything, your commentary about the time being irrelevant is an argument not just against astrology in general, but against that author in particular.
I’m not following on how it promotes belief in “other pseudoscience.” I’m also not sure who decides what is pseudoscience and what is not. I just tried to demonstrate on why the physiological influence of distance gravitational objects is still a great mystery to humanity. I fear that the assignment of these binary labels, and shutting down any discussion of alternative possibilities, is rooted in authoritarianism and is more of a threat than any possible scam.
Regarding exact dates and times, of course, the most accurate input is always preferred. The neat thing about astronomy is that we can actually calculate the approximate location of gravitational bodies at times, in both the past and the future. If you are confident that you know the time of an event to a millisecond, by all means, please use this data with all the accuracy available to you. However, even if you are wrong by a significant amount, this error does not scale linearly with the overarching calculations. I tried demonstrating this by using the absolute maximum error of our position relative to the Earth’s rotation. In sum, this error was insignificant.
I believe that the time of year people are born could well have an effect on their personality. Because so much of your personality is developed in your early years, how old you were when you had your first Xmas, or whether you were the biggest (oldest) or smallest (youngest) person in your school class and sporting team.
I don’t think this has anything actually related to the stars.
Same. Seems like a reasonable possibility to be open to.
You just made an excellent argument for why tarot is inefficient given its random nature. There are healthier more logical approaches to expanding your perspectives.
Anything more and it’s less about shaking out of an established mindset and more just wanting to play pretend
Logical approaches explicitly can’t expand your perspective that way, unless you mean a different word than logic. Logic can only operate after you’ve declared your axioms. Tarot allows you to stochastically test alternative axioms. They are different tools used for different stages of the problem-solving process.