- cross-posted to:
- fuck_cars@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- fuck_cars@lemmy.ml
Matteo Salvini, leader of the far-right Lega party and transport minister has proposed a reform of the traffic road code.
The reform is focused on increasing penality for the types of collisions that have a large echo in the media, such as when the person responsible was under the influence of alcohol or drugs, but in reality it risks increasing the main factor in road mortalities: speed.
In fact the reform will limit mayors’ ability to create new cycle routes or car-free ‘school streets’, or to keep polluting cars out of city centres. It also restrict the possibilities to deploy speed traps.
Campaigners held demonstrations in dozens of Italian cities last week, calling for the reform to be scrapped and re-written in consultation with bereaved families.
cross-posted from: https://feddit.it/post/7041224
Glad the people of Italy and not just rolling over and taking it as Oil and Gas (no doubt behind this) will get their climate destroying ways until we say NO.
We’re very eager to protest but realistically it’s not his side that’s arguing against it so they can more or less safely ignore the protests until the region and township administrators start actually going against it, which is quite possibly going to happen if this measure is unpopular enough.
Fuck me. And in Germany a proposition by the federal government to allow theses types of measures was declined by the regional governments and mayors. They declined having more power themselves. Everybody‘s fucking nuts
This is the best summary I could come up with:
But the Clean Cities campaign group - backed by Europe’s Transport & Environment (T&E) collective - claims the government is using the issue as an excuse to attack sustainable mobility measures.
“In fact, most of the text is focused on the types of collisions that have a large echo in the media, such as when the person responsible was under the influence of alcohol or drugs, but which only amount to five per cent of total road killings.”
In Milan, an ordinance forcing buses and lorries to install blind spot sensors in a bid to reduce cyclist deaths met with similar kickback from the transport minister last year.
Andrea Casu, MP for the main opposition party Partito Democratico, says the government is carrying on “an absurd crusade against the powers of mayors, against cycling and sustainable mobility.”
"Instead of strengthening local public transport in crisis by using at least part of the 22 billion euro we spend every year on environmentally harmful subsidies, Minister Salvini writes a Road Code that looks to the past rather than the future of mobility,” he tells Euronews Green.
With EU elections around the corner, Magliulo sees a connection to Salvini’s drive to push this reform through, positioning Lega as the party applying law and order to road traffic.
The original article contains 1,332 words, the summary contains 214 words. Saved 84%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
A lot of quotes from @claudio in this article! Thank you for bringing this to Europe, so that we are not alone!
The reform is focused on increasing penality for the types of collisions that have a large echo in the media, such as when the person responsible was under the influence of alcohol or drugs,
This would be nice if only the law add some more mandatory controls. You can put all the rules and laws you want but if you don’t enforce them they are useless since actually you get caught just by sheer bad luck.
And people who already respect the law don’t need more severe penalties to continue to respect the same law.but in reality it risks increasing the main factor in road mortalities: speed.
Disagree. Speed itself is a factor, not the main one, which in my opinion is inattentiveness.
As long as someone drive looking at the phone or paying attention to everything else except the road, the problem is not the speed but the fact that he is not aware of his surrounding.
Of course there are exceptions: someone who drive at 100 Km/h in a city street in the middle of the day is extremely dengeous and in the case of a crash there is a high probability of fatalities.In fact the reform will limit mayors’ ability to create new cycle routes or
Cycle routes are nice but cyclists need to start to using them. In my town the current mayor had someone to check how much the cycle routes wanted by the previous one (with the usual groups of people asking for them) are used. Well, it turn out that on a week basis (one with nice weather) only 7% of the cyclists that ran through roads where a dedicate cycle route where present used it. So again, why build one when it is not used ?
car-free ‘school streets’,
It make no sense to close a road to the cars just because there is a school. It is ok to close while the children enter and when they exit, but in the meantime ?
or to keep polluting cars out of city centres.
Yes. And that good. Until the mayor of a city don’t understand that a) smog don’t stop at the city border and b) the city exist in a complex system any decision to close down the city to the cars could be really stupid. I agree that some areas would be better without cars (old town for example) but we were at the point that the decisions were all just PR stunts.
Yeah, Milano is closed to the most polluting cars… which are in the bordering towns across the street trying to park somewhere because there is no fucking way to enter city outside the rush hours without using a car if you have not a couple (or even more) more hours to waste using a train. Oh yes, also put all the exchange parking with the subway or other public transportation inside the closed area, just to have fun. Sound like an intelligent decision ?
It also restrict the possibilities to deploy speed traps.
which is also good, as they are now used to just make money and do nothing to make the roads more secure.
Don’t get me wrong, speed traps are good where there is a documented problem with crashes and fatalities or in sensible zone but honestly when they become a thing that make for the bigger part of a city balance, maybe something is wrong.
This change is a direct consequence of the fact that we have a lot of examples of speed traps deployed without any logic behind, just to make money.Campaigners held demonstrations in dozens of Italian cities last week, calling for the reform to be scrapped and re-written in consultation with bereaved families.
The same campaigners should held demonstrations calling for more reliable and available public transports (especially outside the rush hours), the cyclists to be punished when they don’t use a present cycles route or do not follow the roads laws, for having more city police out in the street at every time (come on, Milano has only 2 patrol out in the night for all the city) to look out for people infringing the laws.
The problem with your comment is that you have a lot of opinions, and they all may sound reasonable, but the facts and data give away a different story, and it is hard and takes time to demonstrate that most of what you state is, to say it kindly , false
So I’ll take only one of your statements and answer that, and won’t waste more time for the rest.
Speed itself is a factor, not the main one, which in my opinion is inattentiveness.
Theory:
- Impact energy grows with the square of the speed. An impact at 50 km/h carries almost 3 times the energy of an impact at 30 km/h. (source: kinetic energy)
- probability of death for a pedestrian when hit by a vehicle at 50 km/h is 70%, when hit at 30 km/h is 10% (source)
- Stopping distance at 50 km/h (23 m) doubles in respect to 30 km/h (12 m) (source)
So, based on the data above, how can speed not be a main factor, especially if we are talking about road fatalities?
So to support theory with fact, there is ton of data on cities that lowered speed limit from 50 to 30 km/h. And data consistently shows reduction in crashes, injuries and fatalities.
I’m not wasting time describing each of the articles below:
- https://swov.nl/en/fact/30-kmh-zones-what-are-road-safety-effects-30-kmh-zones
- https://www.europeandatajournalism.eu/cp_data_news/none-of-the-european-cities-that-lowered-the-speed-limit-to-30-km-h-regrets-it/
- https://etsc.eu/swiss-research-shows-30-km-h-zones-reduced-crashes-by-38/
- https://www.researchgate.net/publication/353710726_Economic_impact_of_30kmh_-_Benefits_and_Costs_of_Speeds_in_an_urban_environment
Yes. The “Cyclists don’t use cycle lanes” line also comes right from the angry right list of grievances. If there’s a cycle lane and people aren’t using it, it’s self-evidently not good enough. And this is hardly surprising when most cycle lanes are cheap afterthoughts that increase danger and inconvenience
Yes. The “Cyclists don’t use cycle lanes” line also comes right from the angry right list of grievances
Yes, sometimes this is true. Sometime it is a cold observation of the facts.
If there’s a cycle lane and people aren’t using it, it’s self-evidently not good enough. And this is hardly surprising when most cycle lanes are cheap afterthoughts that increase danger and inconvenience
Again, sometimes this is true. I agree with you about the new “cycle lanes” done in Milano where basically they just painted some lines on the roads and hope they were respected (btw forgetting anything about where they put them). Sometimes even a convenient physically separated cycle lane is left unused just because.
The problem with your comment is that you have a lot of opinions, and they all may sound reasonable, but the facts and data give away a different story, and it is hard and takes time to demonstrate that most of what you state is, to say it kindly , false
And the problem with your answer is that you get the only thing I openly say it is an opinion (based on my experience anyway) to dismiss all the other points like an opinion where instead I offered some observed facts
So I’ll take only one of your statements and answer that, and won’t waste more time for the rest.
Speed itself is a factor, not the main one, which in my opinion is inattentiveness.
Theory:
Impact energy grows with the square of the speed. An impact at 50 km/h carries almost 3 times the energy of an impact at 30 km/h. (source: kinetic energy) probability of death for a pedestrian when hit by a vehicle at 50 km/h is 70%, when hit at 30 km/h is 10% (source) Stopping distance at 50 km/h (23 m) doubles in respect to 30 km/h (12 m) (source)
Practice:
- the road laws say that while driving, you must only drive and you must pay attention to the road
- the road laws say that need to maintain a speed appropriate to the circumstances
- the road laws say that the pedestrian must follow some rules (do not cross with red light, use the crosswalk and few others)
Obviously if you reduce speed you reduce the possibillity of a fatality. Following this way of thinking, if you reduce the speed to 10 Km/h you reduce even more the crashes and fatalities. Even better, remove the cars, 0 crashes (not sure about 0 fatalities btw).
So, maybe, instead of making new rules, why we cannot start to think to enforce the ones that already exist, on all the users of a road ? After all the Italian road laws are written with the idea that if you follow them then there should not be problems (if not in out of control situations like a failure or similar things).
So my point, in the end, is that concentrating only on the speed, again in my opinion, we are just looking at the most easily factor to “punish” just becasue we are taking for granted that it is always the car the guilty side, in part because all the data normally say “a pedestrian was hit by a car going to 60 Km/h” or “a cyclist was crushed by a lorry turnig right” but they don’t say that the pedestrian was trying to cross a road there the limit is 70 Km/h outside the crosswalk or traffic light and that the cyclist was trying to overtake on the right the turning lorry.
Then it is true that there are some criminals that drive way too fast for place and situation and they are objectively a danger to everyone and everything around them, but I suppose that we cannot continually make new rules following the expectional case and not the norm.
you get the only thing I openly say it is an opinion (based on my experience anyway) to dismiss all the other points like an opinion where instead I offered some observed facts
What you reported are anecdotal facts. Things you observed. Objective facts and data are what we need to improve. The fact that you see people not using the bike lane is not relevant.
- Have you tried to actually count how many people use the bike path and how many not?
- Do you understand that from someone driving a car, you clearly see a cyclist on the road, while you may dismiss and not even register one on the bike path?
- Is the one you talk about a bike path at all? Or maybe is it a mixed use path (so one that cyclist don’t have to use)?
- When I’m riding a bicycle I will always use a bike path, if it is usable; you know, I want to stay alive. I may choose not to use it when mixed because I think it is more dangerous for me and the pedestrians on it. Or if a bike path surface is broken and I would risk falling.
Did you check these?
Practice:
The 3 points you mention as practice are not practice at all. They are theory, they are laws that are usually not respected.
Obviously if you reduce speed you reduce the possibillity of a fatality. Following this way of thinking, if you reduce the speed to 10 Km/h you reduce even more the crashes and fatalities. Even better, remove the cars, 0 crashes (not sure about 0 fatalities btw).
30 km/h is only the maximum speed allowed. And it is a compromise that wold allow for a huge reduction of crash damage, while not reducing travel time by much. Because the average speed in cities is, let’s remember that, more in the 10-20 km/h range. So, speeding between red lights does not save anyone’s time, just increase the danger.
Don’t make me look up for articles about that (please, do it yourself, there is plenty), but the increase of travel times when maximum allowed speed is decreased from 50 to 30 is very low (much, much lower than 50/30 ratio), and the benefits in terms of danger is so high, that it is totally worth it. So the argument “let’s make it 10 km/h” doesn’t make any sense
we are taking for granted that it is always the car the guilty side
it’s not a question of who is guilty, it is a question of where the danger comes from. And it doesn’t come from pedestrians or cyclicsts (see my previous post), it comes from cars. Stop signs exist because of cars. Traffic light exist because of cars. Car insurance exist because of cars.
So my point, in the end, is that concentrating only on the speed, again in my opinion, we are just looking at the most easily factor to “punish”
No, nobody wants to punish. It is because of facts (not anecdotes). It is because it works in theory and in practice, as I fully documented in my previous post. And I was only taking into consideration the 50 to 30 km/h reduction. It works in all the cases, even highways https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2598360/
What you reported are anecdotal facts. Things you observed. Objective facts and data are what we need to improve. The fact that you see people not using the bike lane is not relevant.
Have you tried to actually count how many people use the bike path and how many not?
No. In my town we had people paid to do it. Both normal people and police officers. So, with your permission, I would take it for true unless you can prove me wrong. Then I can concede that there could be some inaccuracy in the count, but I don’t really think that it could be more than some rounding error.
Do you understand that from someone driving a car, you clearly see a cyclist on the road, while you may dismiss and not even register one on the bike path?
Then this someone is not paying attention to his surrounding and it is in the wrong, whatever vehicle he is driving. You don’t dismiss a cyclist only because he is on a bike path and you are not, because you never know what could happen to him, even just a hole in the lane or a mechanical problem, so you need to constantly keep an eye on him until you overtake him. Sorry if I know what I am doing while driving.
Is the one you talk about a bike path at all? Or maybe is it a mixed use path (so one that cyclist don’t have to use)?
Nope, physically separated bike path. They are on the side of the road but there is a small curb between the car lane and the bike lane.
When I’m riding a bicycle I will always use a bike path, if it is usable; you know, I want to stay alive. I may choose not to use it when mixed because I think it is more dangerous for me and the pedestrians on it. Or if a bike path surface is broken and I would risk falling.
And when I drive a car I always respect the laws, so what is the point ? That we both respect the rules ?
Practice:
The 3 points you mention as practice are not practice at all. They are theory, they are laws that are usually not respected.
Then enforce them. The laws are already here. No need for new laws that you cannot/don’t want enforce. Because we all (as Italians) know that they will not be enforced.
Obviously if you reduce speed you reduce the possibillity of a fatality. Following this way of thinking, if you reduce the speed to 10 Km/h you reduce even more the crashes and fatalities. Even better, remove the cars, 0 crashes (not sure about 0 fatalities btw).
30 km/h is only the maximum speed allowed. And it is a compromise that wold allow for a huge reduction of crash damage, while not reducing travel time by much. Because the average speed in cities is, let’s remember that, more in the 10-20 km/h range. So, speeding between red lights does not save anyone’s time, just increase the danger.
I would agree with you if we take this approach and applied it considering the situation street by street (the town know how main crash and fatalities happen in each of them, if a crash is not reported then there is not a fatality and no harm), not if we blindly apply it for political reasons, on both sides. I concede that there could be some initially unreported accident, but in the end if an accident cause a fatality (or harm in any way) it would be reported.
we are taking for granted that it is always the car the guilty side
it’s not a question of who is guilty, it is a question of where the danger comes from. And it doesn’t come from pedestrians or cyclicsts (see my previous post), it comes from cars.
Following your logic, if I sucker punch you and I break my hand, you are the danger. No, I don’t buy it.
If you as a pedestrian or a cyclist keep a dangerous behavior on the road (crossing where you should not, taking over when you should not and so on) then you are the danger, not the car. I don’t accept the fact that if I am driving my car following the laws then you as a pedestrian can do whatever you want, even dangerous thing, and I am the danger and must pay for your idiocy. I am fine to be held accountable for what I am doing on the road but not for what you are doing.
Stop signs exist because of cars. Traffic light exist because of cars. Car insurance exist because of cars.
True, and it is being expected to be respected from every user of the road, not only the cars. Please explain to me why if you as a pedestrian cross an intersection while having the red light then the car that hit you (or not) is the danger. Just because the car is bigger ?
- Have you tried to actually count how many people use the bike path and how many not?
- Impact energy grows with the square of the speed. An impact at 50 km/h carries almost 3 times the energy of an impact at 30 km/h. (source: kinetic energy)
Cycle routes are nice but cyclists need to start to using them.
This may be surprising, but people do things for reasons that make sense to them. Like, that’s what everyone always does. If cyclists aren’t using a bike path, there’s a reason for it. The possible list of reasons is immense and varied. But it’s not your business to criticise them for it, because fundamentally if it was designed so that using it was clearly their best option, they’d be using it.
Punishing them for not doing it is a fucking terrible idea that completely misses the point.
And while we’re at it:
cyclists to be punished when they … do not follow the roads laws
Studies suggest cyclists break road rules at roughly the same rate as drivers. However, their reasons for doing so are very different. Drivers break the law to save themselves a few seconds and because they don’t consider the consequences (to other people’s safety) concerning. Cyclists break the law because for various reasons it is often actually safer if they do so.
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