It kind of illustrates why anarchy is as doomed to fail as libertarianism; note the use of force and the fact that the anarchists friends are not there defending him.
Anarchy cannot defend itself from organized outside threats because it is, by its nature, not organized, particularly in its use of force to confront fascism.
Anarchy is not by nature disorganized. Lack of hierarchy doesn’t mean lack of organization. Probably a well-functioning anarchist organization is better organized than most hierarchical ones.
If friends are not there to defend the group of three, mutual aid is missing. That’s why it failed.
Yes, and that mutual aid relies on people all voluntarily helping when there is a problem, rather than having people who are tasked with ensuring people are protected, which is the same reason libertarianism fails; it’s an ideology that doesn’t acknowledge human self-interest and selfishness, instead it assumes everyone will just agree to abide by a communal philosophy. Many people do not, for all kinds of reasons.
If you are going to create laws and codes of conduct and a means to enforce those laws that’s just a normal state with extra steps.
You can maybe do anarchy at a small scale and in specific contexts but not at the scale needed to make a society function and do things like protect minorities the larger community doesn’t give a shit about.
What does a well-functioning anarchist organization look like, though? How does one of any size prevent from fracturing into competing factions over time? If such organizations are limited to tight-knit community scales, I can’t see how it’s not eventual feudalism with extra steps.
It’s just a type of rule. As in “an-archy”, without ruler.
There’s also “synarchy”, meaning “joint rule or government by two or more individuals or parties”, which I feel is far more what people here are advocating in the name of anarchism.
Who said anarchists and their friends will not defend from outside threats? The Spanish anarchists organized and fought for 3 years against overwhelming odds when they had to.
It’s nice to think they were: I’d rather live in a world without slavery and with democracy but there was no guarantee of success except the fact that in hindsight it was successful.
Not all forms of government have won out. Nor will all possible forms of government succeed.
Yes, but looking forward from their end, with your perspective, none of them were possible. My point is that it’s fallacious to claim that just because it hasn’t succeed yet, it can’t succeed.
Remains to be seen if anarchism can ever win though.
Statist forces have always triumphed.
Nowhere does this preclude future victory: this is an accurate representation of the current state of affairs. Anarchy has 0 victories and it remains to be seen if there will be any.
Until 1783 Democracy had no modern victories either, and it very much remained to be seen if it would.
My point is and always has been the same: we don’t and can’t know if Anarchism will win out against statist forces or not. All we know is that it never has.
If you’re expecting a more polemic argument about Anarchism Bad or something you won’t find it. I wasn’t here to debate anarchism: just to add a caveat.
Past performance is no indicator of future performance. It’s entirely possible that the Zapatistas cause the collapse of the Mexican government just as it’s possible that they fade away into oblivion.
The luddites were annihilated and their philosophy has never been as prevalent or popular as it was in their uprising. While there’s still a chance of a popular resurgence they still missed their best opportunity and were crushed by the state.
History has hundreds of suppressed revolts to every success.
That’s not to say it’s hopeless: just that it isn’t inevitable. We’d like to believe that with enough tries you can succeed but that is a fallacy.
In Paris we fought and were massacred.
In Korea/Manchuria we fought and were massacred.
In Ukraine we fought and were massacred.
And as you say in Spain we fought, but then we were massacred.
There’s more of course, but you get the idea.
Something probably should be done differently in the future.
So? How many slave revolutions did we have before it was “technically” abolished (it’s still ongoing, but at least illegal in principle)? We had legal slavery for like ~6K years until it was abolished. Capitalism only exists for ~400 years and there were hundreds of failed democratic revolutions. Anarchism as a movement is barely over 150yo and no anarchist revolution happened before 100 years. Just because things don’t happen overnight, or even in our lifetime, doesn’t mean they’re impossible.
So, yeah, looking at those examples I’d say we should try to prevent our opponets from going fascist.
If there’s anything fascists are good at it’s murdering lots and lots of people, so Id say we should stop them from gaining a following or try to remove their following if they already got one.
Easier said then done, but, to steal your words, doesn’t mean it’s impossible.
Also notably, the Kronstadt anarchists held a general assembly to dicsuss the question of “shall we accept Lenin’s ultimatum, or fight a battle against the Red Army?” and decided democratically to fight.
(The battle was extremely bloody, anarchists lost and the Red Army won, at the cost of losing at least 5 times more people. Considerable numbers of anarchists escaped to Finland.)
In short: anarchists can use heavy artillery when needed, even if they know that war is not healthy - neither for them or the society they want.
Perhaps like… organised cooperation, even perhaps putting things on paper to make sure what has been agreed upon gets followed through. Maybe even assign some people to do that for the larger society, so everyone doest have to worry about it. I mean, everyone should help each other, so if someone just doesn’t anyone on purpose and even takes other’s things, they should face some sort of negative consequence, but then we’d need to assign people who verify that someone has broken the rules and some to enforce that the negative consequences actually happen.
And wow, the anarcho-syndicalist commune now has government, taxes, justice and law enforcement.
People are by nature cooperative unless fucked over, but I find it weird that the prescriptive meaning of “anarchy” is completely glossed over.
The type of society I want to live in definitely won’t happen without any sort of rules or regulations about at least some things. Otherwise we won’t have industry, and I like my toys. We can’t manage a good (and advanced) society without good regulation which requires good government.
Otherwise we won’t have industry, and I like my toys.
Your toys are being manufactured by some underpaid slave worker in china or india. Have fun playing with these in the few hours of life you got left from the industry.
So you’re saying you think it’s preferable and even possible to go back to a society without any of the amenities which require industry on the scale that regulation is necessary?
Because that’s the actual argument, not whether a person in a capitalistic system participates in said system out of necessity.
I say “toys”, but I’m talking about electronics I actually need. I prefer buying the most ethical ones, but sometimes those option’s don’t exist. And the electronics I’ve now set my eyes on are not manufactured by underpaid slave workers in India or China, but The United States of America.
Just fyi though, clothing is the number one slave industry, and me purchasing a product or two of fancy electronics a year is nothing compared to youngsters constantly buying disposable clothing made in sweatshops. My backpack is older than the average age on Lemmy (from the early 90’s), my jacket is from the 70’s, and aside from a dozen domestic made underwear and t-shirts or so, all my other clothing I’ve either gotten as a gift or bought second-hand. Wool, leather, hemp, cotton and other natural fabrics > polyester.
The main point still remains that the se idyllic cooperatives won’t happen without big time organised… organisations. Like one specifically for matters regarding governing of, say, industries and labour protection.
I wonder what one could call such “governing organisations”?
You defeat your own position, no one said perfection was necessary to achieve any kind of society, no need to let perfection be the enemy of good enough and functional.
My brother in christ, focus on the whole discussion instead of taking it one argument at a time. An imperfect society will, by necessity, fail to the issues raised previously.
I’m not a Christian, but I don’t think it’s at all possible for a society to be perfect, ever. By that metric nothing will address the issues. But issues can be addressed even partially and can be the difference between death and survival.
I don’t agree with that either. If we never knew capitalism we would say the same thing, as a matter of fact we would say it’s inherently imperfect and needs regulations at every turn. On paper I’d say anarchy beats capitalism any day and I’m not even a huge fan of anarchy.
You have a very skewed idea of anarchism. I won’t deny the existence of anti-organizational and pacifist anarchist groups but they’re not a majority. Social anarchism, anarcho-communism, anarcho-syndicalism, communalism, Marxist autonomism, council communism, neozapatismo, and especifism are all libertarian socialist ideologies that espouse the necessity of organization and self defense. I’m sure I’m missing a few too. You’re taking a silly comic as serious commentary on the ideological substance of a deep and diverse body of political theory.
I never implied it was pacifist, but only that it’s ineffective. Without some form of a legal heirarchy where a group is empowered to use force to deal with bad actors those bad actors would run amok because normal people are, by and large, bystanders.
Do you know why we have a professional army that dedicates all their time to training and readiness? Because that’s what it takes to not be steamrolled by your fascist neighbor state who wants what you have. You can’t have some lackadaisical ad hoc minute men arrangement, there are too many humans and too many competing interests for that to work in the modern world. We aren’t jungle tribes, we’re not all going to go live in communial farming homesteads or whatever. So where do I live? In a city with housing? Who makes sure my lights stay on and that my landlord didn’t use asbestos and lead pipes when building the place? Who has the authority to say water must be safe to drink? If everyone else in my building doesn’t believe lead pipes are dangerous am I just shit out of luck if I don’t replace the pipes in the facility myself?
You can’t just have mob justice or random individuals deciding based on their own arbitrary, subjective opinion how to carry out justice at any given moment. If I see a guy shoplifting and just shoot him, who is in a position to tell me that I was wrong and what gives them the right under a system of anarchy? Does that person’s wife or brother now get to shoot me?
I’ve never once met an anarchist who can coherently explain how, in a practical sense, you ensure justice and order at a large scale without a state, legal framework and a system in which individuals (whether they be democratic representatives, judges, cops, military members etc.) are granted power by the collective to make judgements and decisions based on an agreed upon legally binding code of law. When you press them on any given specific issue they basically just start describing the organs of a state.
You speak as if we’re in a functional system where people are safe, getting here was smooth sailing, and I’m proposing a preposterous idea. Our system currently does not work and billions have died to get to this fucked up place. Why would you think a different system will fail because it is not like just the current failing system?
If I see a guy shoplifting and just shoot him, who is in a position to tell me that I was wrong
The community, a functional anarchist community wouldn’t tolerate this, it would become a crime in itself. A functional anarchist community would defend itself and have members ready to do so. If somebody shot another person for something like shoplifting (which wouldn’t be a thing in anarchism duh) that would be murder and that person would now be at risk of termination as a mortal threat to the community. People don’t usually desire to escalate things though, so contrived examples like this are silly.
You can’t have some lackadaisical ad hoc minute men arrangement, there are too many humans and too many competing interests for that to work in the modern world.
I’m not one of those that thinks anarchism is a drop-in replacement for capitalism or that anarchism can come from violent revolution. If anything close to anarchism could ever happen it would take at least a couple generations (of cultural change) and co-occur with degrowth. We know that our current system is unsustainable, so we’re either going to end up with something like anarcho-communism + degrowth or we won’t exist anymore. There is no way a hierarchical system that exploits that planet to support billions will be able to exist beyond the next decades, can’t happen. Even socialism just makes things more equal while we destroy the planet.
I’ve never once met an anarchist who can coherently explain how, in a practical sense, you ensure justice and order at a large scale without a state, legal framework
The scale and ways of life now are the result of an exploitative economic system. Without that it’s not our nature to form into efficiently exploitable structures. We’d form into manageable communities as humans have done for hundreds of thousands of years prior to the appearance of the state.
Who makes sure my lights stay on and that my landlord didn’t use asbestos and lead pipes when…
You and your community work to keep the lights on and other needs met. For asbestos and lead pipes, the motivations to do these things come from an exploitative economic system. In anarchism, if someone sells you poison, you can defend yourself. There won’t be many people selling lead pipes when their life is on the line rather than a fine or job loss.
You can’t just have mob justice or random individuals deciding based on their own arbitrary, subjective opinion how to carry out justice at any given
So instead we should have the opinion of the rich powerful racist people enforced by people with a license to kill and who use in inordinately more often on vulnerable populations who cannot legally protect themselves?
Does that person’s wife or brother now get to shoot me?
Yes, and the community might say, “well, he deserved it, have a taco”. Our current system basically allows most men to rape women and the woman has no recourse because the state protects the rapist. This is not a working system.
It kind of illustrates why anarchy is as doomed to fail as libertarianism; note the use of force and the fact that the anarchists friends are not there defending him.
Anarchy cannot defend itself from organized outside threats because it is, by its nature, not organized, particularly in its use of force to confront fascism.
Anarchy is not by nature disorganized. Lack of hierarchy doesn’t mean lack of organization. Probably a well-functioning anarchist organization is better organized than most hierarchical ones.
If friends are not there to defend the group of three, mutual aid is missing. That’s why it failed.
Yes, and that mutual aid relies on people all voluntarily helping when there is a problem, rather than having people who are tasked with ensuring people are protected, which is the same reason libertarianism fails; it’s an ideology that doesn’t acknowledge human self-interest and selfishness, instead it assumes everyone will just agree to abide by a communal philosophy. Many people do not, for all kinds of reasons.
If you are going to create laws and codes of conduct and a means to enforce those laws that’s just a normal state with extra steps.
You can maybe do anarchy at a small scale and in specific contexts but not at the scale needed to make a society function and do things like protect minorities the larger community doesn’t give a shit about.
What does a well-functioning anarchist organization look like, though? How does one of any size prevent from fracturing into competing factions over time? If such organizations are limited to tight-knit community scales, I can’t see how it’s not eventual feudalism with extra steps.
Hierarchy isn’t the opposite of anarchy.
It’s just a type of rule. As in “an-archy”, without ruler.
There’s also “synarchy”, meaning “joint rule or government by two or more individuals or parties”, which I feel is far more what people here are advocating in the name of anarchism.
Who said anarchists and their friends will not defend from outside threats? The Spanish anarchists organized and fought for 3 years against overwhelming odds when they had to.
Remains to be seen if anarchism can ever win though.
Statist forces have always triumphed.
Monarchy always triumphed over democracy until it didn’t. Slavery always triumphed over abolition until it didn’t.
But none of those triumphs were inevitable.
It’s nice to think they were: I’d rather live in a world without slavery and with democracy but there was no guarantee of success except the fact that in hindsight it was successful.
Not all forms of government have won out. Nor will all possible forms of government succeed.
Yes, but looking forward from their end, with your perspective, none of them were possible. My point is that it’s fallacious to claim that just because it hasn’t succeed yet, it can’t succeed.
Nowhere does this preclude future victory: this is an accurate representation of the current state of affairs. Anarchy has 0 victories and it remains to be seen if there will be any.
Until 1783 Democracy had no modern victories either, and it very much remained to be seen if it would.
Make a point. Don’t make me assume what your point is and then just restate random facts still without making a point.
My point is and always has been the same: we don’t and can’t know if Anarchism will win out against statist forces or not. All we know is that it never has.
If you’re expecting a more polemic argument about Anarchism Bad or something you won’t find it. I wasn’t here to debate anarchism: just to add a caveat.
Now we’re just waiting to see if anarchism will have that moment where they’ll triumph.
Every empire’s days are numbered, it’s not like anything is destined to be forever. I wonder how many days are left for the Zapatistas?
Past performance is no indicator of future performance. It’s entirely possible that the Zapatistas cause the collapse of the Mexican government just as it’s possible that they fade away into oblivion.
The luddites were annihilated and their philosophy has never been as prevalent or popular as it was in their uprising. While there’s still a chance of a popular resurgence they still missed their best opportunity and were crushed by the state.
History has hundreds of suppressed revolts to every success.
That’s not to say it’s hopeless: just that it isn’t inevitable. We’d like to believe that with enough tries you can succeed but that is a fallacy.
Does anyone else feel like we are in a prisoner’s dilemma with this?
Yeah , but …
In Paris we fought and were massacred.
In Korea/Manchuria we fought and were massacred.
In Ukraine we fought and were massacred.
And as you say in Spain we fought, but then we were massacred.
There’s more of course, but you get the idea.
Something probably should be done differently in the future.
So? How many slave revolutions did we have before it was “technically” abolished (it’s still ongoing, but at least illegal in principle)? We had legal slavery for like ~6K years until it was abolished. Capitalism only exists for ~400 years and there were hundreds of failed democratic revolutions. Anarchism as a movement is barely over 150yo and no anarchist revolution happened before 100 years. Just because things don’t happen overnight, or even in our lifetime, doesn’t mean they’re impossible.
So, yeah, looking at those examples I’d say we should try to prevent our opponets from going fascist.
If there’s anything fascists are good at it’s murdering lots and lots of people, so Id say we should stop them from gaining a following or try to remove their following if they already got one.
Easier said then done, but, to steal your words, doesn’t mean it’s impossible.
Also notably, the Kronstadt anarchists held a general assembly to dicsuss the question of “shall we accept Lenin’s ultimatum, or fight a battle against the Red Army?” and decided democratically to fight.
(The battle was extremely bloody, anarchists lost and the Red Army won, at the cost of losing at least 5 times more people. Considerable numbers of anarchists escaped to Finland.)
In short: anarchists can use heavy artillery when needed, even if they know that war is not healthy - neither for them or the society they want.
mutual aid, equality or freedom are not doomed to fail: as long as human beings live in societies they will seek cooperation and justice.
Perhaps like… organised cooperation, even perhaps putting things on paper to make sure what has been agreed upon gets followed through. Maybe even assign some people to do that for the larger society, so everyone doest have to worry about it. I mean, everyone should help each other, so if someone just doesn’t anyone on purpose and even takes other’s things, they should face some sort of negative consequence, but then we’d need to assign people who verify that someone has broken the rules and some to enforce that the negative consequences actually happen.
And wow, the anarcho-syndicalist commune now has government, taxes, justice and law enforcement.
People are by nature cooperative unless fucked over, but I find it weird that the prescriptive meaning of “anarchy” is completely glossed over.
The type of society I want to live in definitely won’t happen without any sort of rules or regulations about at least some things. Otherwise we won’t have industry, and I like my toys. We can’t manage a good (and advanced) society without good regulation which requires good government.
Your toys are being manufactured by some underpaid slave worker in china or india. Have fun playing with these in the few hours of life you got left from the industry.
So you’re saying you think it’s preferable and even possible to go back to a society without any of the amenities which require industry on the scale that regulation is necessary?
Because that’s the actual argument, not whether a person in a capitalistic system participates in said system out of necessity.
I say “toys”, but I’m talking about electronics I actually need. I prefer buying the most ethical ones, but sometimes those option’s don’t exist. And the electronics I’ve now set my eyes on are not manufactured by underpaid slave workers in India or China, but The United States of America.
Just fyi though, clothing is the number one slave industry, and me purchasing a product or two of fancy electronics a year is nothing compared to youngsters constantly buying disposable clothing made in sweatshops. My backpack is older than the average age on Lemmy (from the early 90’s), my jacket is from the 70’s, and aside from a dozen domestic made underwear and t-shirts or so, all my other clothing I’ve either gotten as a gift or bought second-hand. Wool, leather, hemp, cotton and other natural fabrics > polyester.
The main point still remains that the se idyllic cooperatives won’t happen without big time organised… organisations. Like one specifically for matters regarding governing of, say, industries and labour protection.
I wonder what one could call such “governing organisations”?
You defeated your own position. Humans aren’t, nor can be perfecly just nor perfectly cooperative.
You defeat your own position, no one said perfection was necessary to achieve any kind of society, no need to let perfection be the enemy of good enough and functional.
My brother in christ, focus on the whole discussion instead of taking it one argument at a time. An imperfect society will, by necessity, fail to the issues raised previously.
If there’s some other part of the argument that supports that, I don’t see it.
I’m not a Christian, but I don’t think it’s at all possible for a society to be perfect, ever. By that metric nothing will address the issues. But issues can be addressed even partially and can be the difference between death and survival.
Neither am I. It’s a figure of speech.
Then you shouldn’t campaign for the one form of government which does pretty much require a perfect society.
I don’t agree with that either. If we never knew capitalism we would say the same thing, as a matter of fact we would say it’s inherently imperfect and needs regulations at every turn. On paper I’d say anarchy beats capitalism any day and I’m not even a huge fan of anarchy.
???
We do say the same thing. It’s why we want to crush this shitty system. Because we know it is shit and doesn’t work.
A privilege which Anarchy doesn’t get.
You have a very skewed idea of anarchism. I won’t deny the existence of anti-organizational and pacifist anarchist groups but they’re not a majority. Social anarchism, anarcho-communism, anarcho-syndicalism, communalism, Marxist autonomism, council communism, neozapatismo, and especifism are all libertarian socialist ideologies that espouse the necessity of organization and self defense. I’m sure I’m missing a few too. You’re taking a silly comic as serious commentary on the ideological substance of a deep and diverse body of political theory.
Anarchism is neither inherently pacifist nor disorganized, that’s your lack of understanding showing.
The circle A anarchism logo means “order without hierarchy”.
I never implied it was pacifist, but only that it’s ineffective. Without some form of a legal heirarchy where a group is empowered to use force to deal with bad actors those bad actors would run amok because normal people are, by and large, bystanders.
Do you know why we have a professional army that dedicates all their time to training and readiness? Because that’s what it takes to not be steamrolled by your fascist neighbor state who wants what you have. You can’t have some lackadaisical ad hoc minute men arrangement, there are too many humans and too many competing interests for that to work in the modern world. We aren’t jungle tribes, we’re not all going to go live in communial farming homesteads or whatever. So where do I live? In a city with housing? Who makes sure my lights stay on and that my landlord didn’t use asbestos and lead pipes when building the place? Who has the authority to say water must be safe to drink? If everyone else in my building doesn’t believe lead pipes are dangerous am I just shit out of luck if I don’t replace the pipes in the facility myself?
You can’t just have mob justice or random individuals deciding based on their own arbitrary, subjective opinion how to carry out justice at any given moment. If I see a guy shoplifting and just shoot him, who is in a position to tell me that I was wrong and what gives them the right under a system of anarchy? Does that person’s wife or brother now get to shoot me?
I’ve never once met an anarchist who can coherently explain how, in a practical sense, you ensure justice and order at a large scale without a state, legal framework and a system in which individuals (whether they be democratic representatives, judges, cops, military members etc.) are granted power by the collective to make judgements and decisions based on an agreed upon legally binding code of law. When you press them on any given specific issue they basically just start describing the organs of a state.
You speak as if we’re in a functional system where people are safe, getting here was smooth sailing, and I’m proposing a preposterous idea. Our system currently does not work and billions have died to get to this fucked up place. Why would you think a different system will fail because it is not like just the current failing system?
The community, a functional anarchist community wouldn’t tolerate this, it would become a crime in itself. A functional anarchist community would defend itself and have members ready to do so. If somebody shot another person for something like shoplifting (which wouldn’t be a thing in anarchism duh) that would be murder and that person would now be at risk of termination as a mortal threat to the community. People don’t usually desire to escalate things though, so contrived examples like this are silly.
I’m not one of those that thinks anarchism is a drop-in replacement for capitalism or that anarchism can come from violent revolution. If anything close to anarchism could ever happen it would take at least a couple generations (of cultural change) and co-occur with degrowth. We know that our current system is unsustainable, so we’re either going to end up with something like anarcho-communism + degrowth or we won’t exist anymore. There is no way a hierarchical system that exploits that planet to support billions will be able to exist beyond the next decades, can’t happen. Even socialism just makes things more equal while we destroy the planet.
The scale and ways of life now are the result of an exploitative economic system. Without that it’s not our nature to form into efficiently exploitable structures. We’d form into manageable communities as humans have done for hundreds of thousands of years prior to the appearance of the state.
You and your community work to keep the lights on and other needs met. For asbestos and lead pipes, the motivations to do these things come from an exploitative economic system. In anarchism, if someone sells you poison, you can defend yourself. There won’t be many people selling lead pipes when their life is on the line rather than a fine or job loss.
So instead we should have the opinion of the rich powerful racist people enforced by people with a license to kill and who use in inordinately more often on vulnerable populations who cannot legally protect themselves?
Yes, and the community might say, “well, he deserved it, have a taco”. Our current system basically allows most men to rape women and the woman has no recourse because the state protects the rapist. This is not a working system.
I don’t think those ideas are doomed to fail. I think the idea of not having a state is doomed to fail.