I’m sorry, why the fuck aren’t these street legal in more than half of the states? The article says something about safety, but these are street legal all over Europe where we have stronger safety regulations.
Also there’s something I can’t put my finger on about the journalist choosing a hero image of the van losing its cargo.
Probably because it’s not safe to drive them around giant pickups who can’t see over their hoods
Europe and Japan all have freight trucks driving around, so I don’t buy that. The fact that many states won’t allow these is American truck manufacturing protectionism, nothing more. It’s the same reason you can only get a 3/4 or 1 ton truck from Ford, Chevy, or Ram (chicken tax).
It’s all about the chicken tax.
Cab over engine freight trucks with excellent visibility, not jacked up chevys where your view of the ground starts 20 feet in front of you
And that’s precisely because the option isn’t readily available here. We can argue merits of different countries versus the US, but at the end of the day it is what it is unless something changes at the legislative level.
When say a contractor goes to purchase a work vehicle, the option is either a van, which have pathetic motors and hauling capabilities, or a pickup from one of the big 3 that can be outfitted with a utility body. Sometimes you can score one of those Isuzu cabovers, but they’re typically outfitted with a full sized box on the chassis, and they’re far and few between, and often more expensive. Vans are also stupid expensive, especially 4x4 models, because of the van life crowd. The options really are much more limited than other parts of the world, and I truly believe it’s to keep prices high and the money vacuum humming. Plus, you can find an older utility body truck for a fraction of the cost of a used van (I just did this 6 months ago; granted I’m in California, so my experience may not be the norm).
I ended up buying a Ram 2500 when looking for a work truck. I would’ve loved a 25/35 class van, but I need 4x4 (mountains, snow), and because of the premium those models fetch due to demand from the van life people, that wasn’t an option.
And I dunno about other people, but I know what’s in front of my truck at all times. It really isn’t that hard to mind your surroundings.
The front view from a freight truck is better than that of a f150.
Sure, but as I responded to someone else, show me a viable option that’s readily available in the states for a contractor or someone delivering heavy stuff that has the power and 4x4 to do the thing at a reasonable price. I’m all for getting some of these European/Japanese solutions over here, but they simply aren’t available or affordable, and so we’re stuck with oversized pickups and under powered vans until something changes.
How’s that different from driving a car roughly the same size?
Just noting as a reference these trucks are 11ft long, a Miata is roughly 20% longer at 13ft.
Doing comparisons like these don’t make sense when motorcycles and trikes exist.
I didn’t really intend for it to be a comparison or supporting the narrative these trucks are ‘too small for America’, I just find many people hear small truck and imagine “like a ford ranger but a little less”, as their starting reference point. Gotta go smaller, scale is tough.
My bad. It just seems like the low hanging fruit everyone plays off of.
We actually used to get vehicles close to this size. The Suzuki samurai (really a jimny) was sold here for a number of years. Geo sold a fair number of almost kei cars that Suzuki made.
I’m a fan of limiting them from interstate highways, but keeping them registrable. It’s just dumb they cite “safety” even though the law explicitly calls out they aren’t required to be safe. I just want a nice 25-45 mph city truck to lug dirty junk around.
But if anyone is curious, Douglas deBoard imported so many European cars in the 80’s that cut into the profits of Mercedes USA enough that they pushed the law through. Buying them in Europe and importing them was actually cheaper (in some aspects) than buying a US market one. And the imported cars were better equipped!
It wasn’t even about protecting American manufacturers or trucks. Mercedes has just always been a huge dick.
No lie. Gray market Mercedes were awesome. Way more powerful and you could get base models with zero cruft - manual transmissions and wind up windows.
Just for reference a Fiat 500 is roughly 9.75 feet long.
Maybe in the 70s, a modern 500 is listed at 11.6 ft
It looks like I got my info mixed up, thank you for the correction.
But then it’s these giant pickups which are unfit and should not be road legal.
This is how we got in this mess, an arms race of trying to feel safe around larger and larger hunks of metal on the road. Americans just have to endanger everyone else for their own peace of mind.
And yet Smart cars are legal.
Smart cars had to pass US crash test standards and have the appropriate safety equipment. The kei trucks that you can currently import and use are 25+ years old and wouldn’t have even passed US standards back then. Your legs are the crumple zone in these things.
I assume that new ones would have a chance, but it’d be expensive for a manufacturer to modify and certify for the US market. Small cars haven’t sold well here, and the profit margins are slim.
Maybe with the recent size and price increases in autos here, well see some movement. I’d love a modern Honda kei to go with my element.
The crumple zone thing is a bit grey as the USA sells and allows trucks like the Isuzu NPR/Chevy Cab Over.
I get all that, but the individual I replied to only related small size to safety. I was merely pointing out that size isn’t a factor.
I appreciate your post, and agree completely! A Kei truck would satisfy all my requirements for a utility vehicle.
I’m sorry, their problem is that the massive trucks are somehow in danger because they weren’t designed to handle being hit by a vehicle less than half its size?
What a ridiculous statement.
That’s not what they are saying at all. They’re saying small vehicles aren’t even safe in crashes with other small vehicles, let alone with bigger vehicles.
They took a street legal Smart ForTwo…
Then crashed it into a little electric truck and a golf cart…
And they want stuff to be as safe as the Smart car.
Ya. Everything’s expensive, so people buy the cheapest thing [with four wheels]. I don’t want folks on the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum to think these are a safe option.
If(?) a ‘90s Honda sedan is safer but the Kei is new and looks cute, for the same price many will choose the less safe option.
Eight Californians die on our roads every day here and I can’t wait for some solutions. I really do empathize with everyone you readers care about (no oil companies, no just-for-funsies-truck manufacturers) - I hate the thought of crumpled and crushed human bodies.
What makes you think it’s not safe?
Thin steel frame, no air bags, no crumple zones.
Check out the crash tests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roLcNwRi1Sk&t=40s
Wow, the Kei truck does not fare well at all in that offset test!
Ouch
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=roLcNwRi1Sk&t=40s
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
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Just added something about that - articles & crash tests over the years. Was interested in little vehicles myself. Intrigued seeing them on college campuses.
Protectionism.
Speed restrictions.
Kei trucks were designed for use in dense Japanese cities, which is why they also work in European cities. They are nimble but have a low top speed. You’re not going 70 mph around a street corner for instance.
It would work in places like NYC for the same reasons, but remember that most of the USA is suburban or rural. You need vehicles that are capable of going fast if you’re going to get on a highway.
A possible workaround is to have a separate class for these, like mopeds or scooters, which are road legal but are not highway legal.
That work around is what most states that explicitly legalized kei trucks have done, they can’t enter roads over 55mph. It’s a reasonable concession, you probably don’t want to take one over 50mph anyway.
Most places in the US are connected by 55 mph roads. I’d be hard-pressed to get anywhere but the city center in most places I’ve lived if I couldn’t use those roads.
Farm equipment and bikes use those roads all the time, and they go even slower, so I don’t think being able to keep up with traffic is a valid concern.
Note that I said over 55, rural connection roads should still be traversable since most are 55. Basically limits them from entering the interstate highways.
Southern California is entirely navigable by surface streets, but also too, there are plenty of vehicles going only 55 in the slow lanes, which is the speed limit for trucks anyway (though few pay attention to it). I have a '72 camper that can barely do 50, and I take it on the freeway several times a year.
I live in one of the most rural states in the country, where loads to haul are generally large and the posted speed limit on the highway is usually 75 mph, and the de facto highway speed is usually 5-10 mph above that. No truck that can barely push 70 is gonna keep up with that. On top of that, you’re dealing with ice and snow on the roads half the year, so you’ll need to be able to deal with that too.
In Illinois, at least, your motorcycle has to be 150cc to ride on the interstate. A Chinese GY6 scooter might be able to do 50MPH with a tailwind. You’d get killed on the interstate on one of those, yet, fully legal to do it.
You’d get killed on the interstate on one of those,
You guys in Illinois are crazy though. I learned very quickly how much that 55 MPH limit is a guideline and not a hard limit.
Depends on what part of Illinois you’re talking about, I’m from southern Illinois and we typically only go about 60/65 on highway and 75/80 on interstate. Chicagoans will honk and pass me while I am doing 80 through 2 lane construction zones, literally happened a couple months ago as I was driving to O’Hare for an overnight flight
A long, long time ago, I used to drive from Kenosha, WI, to Wilmette (and later Northfield), IL, for work, down I-94, in a 1986 Honda CRX. Up until about Tower Rd., I was doing 105MPH every day, and people were passing me like nothing.
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They might have been looking at the kph instead of mph. 65 mph (105 kph) with everyone passing sounds about right.
thats honestly a problem that can be solved with a small turbocharger and a slightly higher msrp, its not like they are ever getting close to the price of one of the huge ones.
Here in the states we have
legal corruptionlobbyists which the auto manufacturers pay to keep cheap vehicles from being used. And then the lawmakers claim safety concerns as the reason.They’re not really safe. They are generally front heavy, so there is a risk of rolling forward, no crumple zone safety stuff, more often than not the front suspension is under the seat and if that breaks it would shoot up into the cabin, and on top of everything they are pretty slow. They have more in common with an off road Polaris than a traditional truck, which is to be expected because they were mostly designed to be farm trucks. I’d much rather be in an older s10 than a kei truck in the event of a crash (and s10’s aren’t very safe). I think I lot of why they are so popular these days is because there aren’t really any light trucks anymore, and these are an alternative.
I’d still own one if they were just banned on highways. The risk is probably pretty low on low speed city streets, where these would be most useful.
I actually considered it when I last looked for a new vehicle but besides being too expensive for what they are ($10k for a 90s cheap truck) they made a lot of compromises on them. For instance, on most the struts and springs are right under the seats, so if that breaks it would come right up into your legs. If the truck is rusty and going over bumps, that is a non zero possibility.
We should take a step back: why do we need all those safety standards in the first place? The reason is that we have such gigantic vehicles in the first place, and smaller ones simply cannot be safe on the same road. Level that all down and suddenly Kei cars are as safe as they need to be.
The problem is not even big trucks. It is medium speed collisions with barriers. Kei trucks typically don’t have air bags or a crumple zone. They are designed for low speed driving on open roads.
Not really. I compared it to an older Chevy s10 for a reason. Those were relatively small trucks that, while not always the most reliable, are still a pretty decent option for most people. Kei trucks are a smidge smaller, but are better on gas and frankly less safe. I don’t think this is a “get rid of bigger vehicles and this goes away” but of a “Kei trucks aren’t really any safer than an off-road golf cart and current regulations allows them on the road”. We need the safety regulations so less people die on Auto accidents, and kei trucks don’t really have to comply with even the basic ones.
I wrapped a 2017 SUV around a telephone pole and didn’t get a scratch. It’s not all about other cars.
Traditionally they’ve been banned because they don’t do well in crash testing, as they don’t have crumple zones or airbags. Here’s some testing from 2010 by the insurance industry arguing that they shouldn’t be on highways.
Where exactly are these legal in Europe? I’ve never seen one, we have small-ish trucks (that get bigger every iteration) but not this tiny, that I know of. Pretty sure they’re not legal in my country at least.
in Europe?
but not this tiny,You don’t know the Ape? It’s really everywhere in Europe.
No I didn’t, they might be everywhere but they aren’t very common (maybe in Italy…). I’ve seen the other small plagio truck (because that Ape is not a truck, barely a bit more than a scooter), but only a handful and it’s been like ten years since the last I saw, and they aren’t as small as these kei trucks (these are as long as a fiat 500).
You don’t know the Ape? It’s really everywhere in Europe.
I haven’t seen those in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany except maybe once in 5 years. Further, it’s seems not comparable. In Netherlands it likely wouldn’t be considered a car. It likely would fall under the max 45 kmh regulations.
They’re definitely legal, they’re just not sold. I’ve seen them, but they’re generally sold by importer companies that sell JDM vehicles. A business in my area has a fleet of kei pickups
They don’t meet the us safety standards. It could mean a lot of things like lacking 5mph bumpers, air bags, abs, etc.
Doesn’t mean they aren’t safe.
Doesn’t mean they aren’t safe.
At just 31MPH a Kei truck gets absolutely clobbered in front offset and side impact safety tests, even against small vehicles like Smart Cars and the old (small) Ford Rangers. Like don’t bother calling an ambulance just the morgue kind of clobbered.
Kei trucks are neat vehicles and I’d like to have one but scientific testing shows that they are not safe.
yet people are killed / injured on european road at much smaller rate than in the US. the best US state is less safe than even the worst canadian province (and canada isnt even good). the US treats its roads like a car crash derby so it needs “higher standards”, but that approach is provably terrible. not only vehicules are huge and wasteful, but the roads remain horribly unsafe as well.
Just because a vehicle doesn’t meet us safety standards doesn’t mean they aren’t safe. It also doesn’t mean they are safe.
Also, aren’t these all 25 years old or older? Safety expectations should be lower.
For the hero image, that could possibly just be an attempt at a “fun” way of showing that they can carry a lot by mean of hyperbole.
“Look at that tiny truck, it’s bursting with boxes!”
Different crash standards in US and Europe. Most companies don’t even bother getting cars tested (designed?) in both because the market demands are so different.
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European road safety regulations are significantly weaker than those in the US and Canada.
Pretty sure that’s not the case, had a little Google and it seems like I’m right, but I’m open to being corrected if I’m wrong or misunderstanding what you mean. Here’s evidence to support my claim:
https://etrr.springeropen.com/articles/10.1007/s12544-014-0131-7
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001457518300034
You’ve never been to Europe, lol.
I’ve lived in several European countries and also worked in compliance departments for auto manufacturers. You have zero clue what you’re talking about.
Yet you back up your claim with nothingness. Not quite sure how living in a country makes you an expert on regulations. Why didn’t you add substance? The compliance department in the companies I worked for wouldn’t be experts btw.
We desperately need smaller vehicles to counter the behemoth light trucks that are in the road today. Everything about these kei truck bans just scream corruption and incompetence from politicians to domestic auto manufacturers.
“Light” trucks. A real light truck is something like the Toyota Hilux up through the 5th or 6th generation.
My S10 is a “light truck.” A Silverado 3500 is not.
Americans just love being the biggest on the road. Bigger is better in their minds. Maybe we put an extra tax on very large vehicles.
We need to require special licenses for those behemoths.
I’d prefer they get banned entirely because there’s really no practical use for them that isn’t solved by some other commercial vehicle.
i’ve thought about that for high performance vehicles, but probably more important for very large vehicles. like a B/C license.
It’s not only Americans though. French car makers also sell big SUVs to everyone because it’s very important to have the biggest car ever when you bring back a small bag of groceries, or when you desperately need to be on top of the world in the traffic jams. I see those morons every day and it saddens me.
damn, i would have expected the french to have better taste in their vehicles
Nope, it’s over since the invention of SUVs and leasing cars. Nowadays everyone has a big car or an expensive car.
Does Citroen make SUV’s now? They must be smoooooooth
They do, they are as ugly as all the other SUVs
The other day an edible and an aliexpress misadventure really got me wondering “Why shouldn’t I have an electric cargo trike”?
It’s the biggest tricycle I can find!
Haha because it’s from aliexpress. I think it’s a great idea though. You can haul things. Don’t need roads. Looks cool. Good for the environment
I know. If one were made by a known entity and not the price of an actual vehicle, I would be very tempted.
Aliexpress with the bangers:
Or stop making fuel artificially inexpensive?
Tell me more
I’d love to see a comeback of vehicles like 1980s Toyota and Mazda pickups. Just a bit taller than sedans, good sized bed. I never understood the popularity of trucks that almost need a mini ladder to get into when they’re being used strictly in an urban or suburban setting.
Yeah it’s just people trying to show how big their penis is with a car
What ban?
Many US states have laws preventing people from registering these kei class trucks.
For example, https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/how-register-imported-vehicle
On that page
KEI-Class vehicles cannot be registered or titled in New York State. (Authority: Section 400-a of NYS VTL)
Is there a reason for the ban related to how the car is built or designed, or is it politics?
I think any person who has a hand in making those laws would say it’s for safety. Though I also think many people looking at it and comparing it to other vehicles that are allowed would call it politics/corruption/stupidity. I personally think it’s politics
Politics. If you can register a motorcycle or atv, there’s zero excuses for not being able to register a light truck like a kei truck. Honestly they’re basically industrial grade golf carts.
They stopped making Honda Fits (in North America) because there was no demand.
Do you consider a Honda Fit a light duty truck?
The topic of oversized vehicles is not limited to trucks.
In a post about small light duty trucks, and a comment about small light duty trucks, you’re pointing out that compact sedans are not popular. Would you like to point out some other true but off topic things? Most sedans are two wheel drive. SUVs are the most popular body style.
“No one is allowed to deviate at all in the slightest bit ever, to the obvious bigger topic!!!”
It’s entirely irrelevant to bring up one specific type of vehicle being cancelled because people didn’t like it, which can be for a shitload of different reasons beyond just size
This is true, yet I see a lot of them on the road and speaking for my circle of people I know plenty of people who want them. It’s a shame really as I was only left with the civic and that’s the same size as my old accord.
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Chicken tax and EPA nuttery. It’s fucking bullshit.
Kei trucks have the same, if not slightly bigger/smaller, bed size as a modern F-150. But they’re basically the size of Honda Fits.
I’ve wanted one since I worked for USPS and learned to drive on the right side of a vehicle. My state does allow you to register them and drive them on the road, but alas, I cannot afford one. :(
Kei trucks only can carry like 800 pounds. I run a bar and regularly take my pickup truck, a 2500, to its bed capacity of roughly 3000 lbs. I’ve had it sitting low just in empties before. A Kei truck can’t even haul my motorcycle if it breaks down. Now someone who’s a full time contractor, would call that thing useless, a farmer might buy one instead of a John Deere gator or side by side. It’d be suitable for golf course maintenance.
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It was a backlash to auto manufacturers classifying everything as a truck to get around emissions and fuel economy standards. The fucking PT Cruiser was a “truck” according to Chrysler.
So they started classifying standards based on vehicle footprint with the idiotic hope that would make the manufacturers act better, but the manufacturers realized they could just make cars bigger every refresh cycle to stay ahead of CAFE.
Station wagons are classed as trucks, is why the PT Cruiser fell in there.
Yeah, a ranger would be ideal for a run around, could even tow my old camper, thing only weighs 3000 lbs. I’d just have to make more frequent beer runs of lesser amounts. At least a ranger can hold an old harley.
Yep, I’m a contractor, I would absolutely only own one to use for work if I had a big property, and it’d be groundskeeping. Just FYI though, Kei trucks are used as contractor/work trucks in Japan, as are Kei vans.
But your average person’s Home Depot trip isn’t going to be close to what a contractor would use. And, just like what currently happens, if your vehicle can’t handle an outlying circumstance, you either rent one that can or have the materials delivered.
So beyond work applications, and towing which most people don’t need the size vehicle they have for what they’re towing, modern pickup trucks are oversized and unnecessary for probably 95% of people.
ten sheets of 3/4 inch plywood is pushing the capacity of a Kei. That’s right in the middle of homeowner use.
If that happened I’d buy one. A truck would make a lot of sense for me but I hate the ones that are available so much I couldn’t stomach buying one. I just make due with my old civic and borrowing my dads colorado when I need to move big stuff.
Ford and Hyundai have tried to bring service to that market with the Maverick and Santa Cruz, respectively. My folks have one and love it, but I’ve found most people still complain because they “don’t need that big if a truck” but then you mention towing/hauling capacity and they say “well why can’t it just tow something small like an F150 does? I’m not trying to get a dually but if I didn’t want to do X then I’d just get a car!” I suspect most people’s “truck needs” would be accommodated but fomo and marketing leads buyers astray even when they already know what they want. Or they’re fickle and just need something to complain about.
Ford and Hyundai have tried to bring service to that market with the Maverick and Santa Cruz
They didn’t try very hard. The Maverick doesn’t have a single cab or full size bed option and the santa cruz looks like a SUV with 1/4 of the back chopped off.
Here’s a comparison of a 2008 Ranger vs. a 2022 Maverick to show what I mean better. They’re roughly the same size but you lose so much with the Maverick.
2008 RANGER Height 67.7 in. Length 203.6 in. Width 69.4 in. Wheelbase 125.9 in.
2022 MAVERICK Height 68.7 in. Length 199.7 in. Width 72.6 in. Wheelbase 121.1 in.
the 2008 ranger is such a nice truck. Maverick is just a minivan with an open trunk. Might as well just get a real minivan.
I have a minivan and it carries everything we need. If I put down the back seats, it carries about as much ae a Ford Maverick, perhaps more. I can also fold or remove the middle seats for even more space, which is comparable to a full bed. The only thing it can’t really do is take dumps of mulch, gravel, etc, but it can tow a trailer for that.
Minivans are fantastic.
I drive a 98 Ranger XLT, it has a 5900 lb towing capacity. I’m pretty much going to keep fixing it forever.
I drove a 99 Ranger into the ground. It was absolutely fine in every way that truck people care about. Give us back our small trucks!
The Ranger/B2000, S-10, and first Tacoma were really the sweet spot for compact pickup trucks but you won’t get them back, because all of them got killed by CAFE.
CAFE, safety, larger wheels, more gadgets. These mega corps do their research. Turns out the “real small truck lovers” are a vocal minority, or the things you say you want didn’t include all the things you take for granted in every new car because they just…are.
Not me. I’m content to be the minority. My truck is from '99 and newer vehicles annoy the shit out of me.
I don’t want gadgets and I don’t want to need a stepladder to get in it, either. 8’ bed, single cab, crank windows.
It’s the same shit as with smartphones. “If people wanted a headphone jack/removable battery/SD slot/whatever then why are they still buying smartphones?” BECAUSE THERE ARE NO OPTIONS THAT HAVE WHAT THEY WANT. I haven’t bought a phone since 2017 and I won’t until forced into it by circumstances. We literally can’t vote with our wallets because what we want isn’t on the ballot.
Look up manufactured consent. When you mix American conservative male identity with American consumerism then it no longer matters that they would prefer smaller trucks. They will buy what’s offered, at the insane price it’s offered. (Pickup truck margin and dealer mark up is one of the highest)
So no, the mere sale of larger vehicles doesn’t mean I’m in a minority. In order to get that data you’d need to have smaller pickups on offer at the same time.
What do you find people want to tow? I’m often at a loss when people bring this up because I’ve never once had a moment in my life where I was disappointed by the lack of towing capacity of my small car
Camping. Boats. Moving furniture. Gay party floats. The list goes on.
What the heck do you need to tow for camping if you have a pickup truck? I can see boats, but boat people buy the towing capacity they need. Not the size of truck.
Is legal here to tow two trailers if the first is 5th wheel. You can bumper hitch a boat behind your camper. This take a fairly serious truck, and is why I have a 5th wheel trailer that’s only 19 feet.
Yeah, but the second you need a fifth wheel then you need a pickup truck bed to put the receiver in.
Well yeah. It looks funny when I only tow the camper, as my truck is 21 feet long, the camper 19, and with the fifth wheel setup, the truck appears to dwarf that camper.
Note that Americans basically all drive automatic transmissions, those have a thing called a torque converter. Unless that part is actively cooled it’s going to overheat when asked to do high-torque stuff over prolonged durations and as that active cooling needs space and weight it generally only comes with truck-sized vehicles.
In short: The reason Americans don’t haul caravans and horses and boats with cars is because they can’t drive stick.
?
Every automatic transmission car sold since the 1970’s and probably earlier has had a transmission cooler, right there alongside or in front of the radiator.
Also all of them have locking torque converters so there is no energy loss at constant speed. Also also, unless going upward at an incline. Most of the power requirements come from aerodynamic drag, not rolling friction of the trailer.
You can’t lock the converter when accelerating because
that’s not a constant speedyou’ll stall the motor under the torque load, and to accelerate you need to overcome momentum. Neither drag nor rolling friction are anywhere close to high torque.And I have no idea what the previous poster meant with a transmission cooler, I guess it’s a different thing because a torque converter very much is not a transmission, if you want to compare it to anything then to a clutch. In any case I’ve got that explanation from an actual American actual car mechanic and random lemmings aren’t going to change my mind especially while making no mechanical sense.
Wow. The remaining 7,950,999,999 people on this planet now have something to be thankful for, because none of them are as wrong as you.
You clearly did not actually understand what your mechanic told you.
A transmission cooler is exactly what it sounds like. It is built exactly like a radiator and works the same way. It is mounted in front of or next to the radiator for the engine. On a lot of newer cars it is actually part of the main radiator. Transmission fluid flows through it and excess heat is dumped into the air. On many vehicles it’s also served by the radiator fan, i.e. for situations where the vehicle is not getting airflow because it’s not moving.
The torque converter is part of your automatic transmission literally operates by moving the transmission fluid. There is no separation between the transmission fluid used in the torque converter and the rest of the transmission where the hydraulic valves use it to actuate the clutch bands, etc. to shift gears. The same bath of transmission fluid is circulated through the torque converter, the rest of the transmission, and the transmission cooler.
This is not a truck thing. Even my dinkum Saturn SL I had when I was a teenager that was so pathetic it was literally made of plastic and did not crack 100 horsepower had a transmission cooler – as designed from the factory. The vast majority of passenger vehicles made in the last half century or more with automatic transmissions have transmission coolers built in. It has nothing to do with towing, either.
Your torque converter absolutely can be locked under acceleration and in fact, nearly all vehicles equipped with a locking torque converter do so as part of their normal shifting pattern when moving up through their gears. This is observable from the driver’s seat if you know what’s happening. The locking and unlocking of the torque converter feels like an “extra gear” in between the gears. Some Japanese cars from the 80’s have a “TC Locked” light on a dash that illuminates when the converter is locked and you can watch this happen in real time. The usual pattern is 1st gear, shift to 2nd gear, lock converter, unlock converter and shift to 3rd, lock converter, unlock converter and shift to 4th, etc. A traditional automatic transmission only has 4 gear ratios, but it will feel like it has seven. Guess why.
Think about it real hard for a minute. A locked torque converter is the same, mechanically, as a fully engaged clutch. If you could not lock the torque converter during acceleration, by the same logic you would not be able to fully release the clutch pedal during acceleration on a manual transmission car, either. It is glaringly obvious that this is not the case.
I am not a “random lemming.” I have four decades of actual real world mechanical experience and have disassembled and rebuilt more transmissions, engines, and vehicles in general than you have probably sat in throughout your entire life.
Torque converters use transmission fluid to operate, that tranny fluid goes through a cooler.
A torque converter is part of the whole transmission system even if it’s a separate housing. When you buy a new transmission, it comes with a torque converter.
Torque converters also create the majority of heat in automatic transmissions and are why automatic transmissions get coolers in the first place. How many manuals have you seen with transmission coolers?
No, you can accelerate and deccelerate. Only needs to unlock for gear changes.
Only in city would the torque converter spend an appreciable amount of time unlocked but then again, in the city you won’t be moving fast either
They stopped SELLING THEM TO US!!!
Ah I see! You see I am also American and have an automatic, but don’t have the funds or space for boats, caravans, or horses. I definitely did not know that about the torque converter, so thank you for that info!
I guess I just always assumed that those with the money and land for those activities you listed are wealthy enough to be in the extreme minority, but the way you say this makes me think my friends across the pond have a different perspective. Perhaps I am also in a bit of a bubble, having grown up in and only talk to people in a similar economic class.
Oh boats are definitely a big money thing (unless we’re talking inflatable, even with outboard motor), horses well you just may have a crazy horse girl on your hands – they definitely cost money but are affordable on an insurance clerk’s salary, but caravans aren’t expensive. You can get a decent used one for 5k and camping grounds and cooking for yourself are quite a bit cheaper than hotels and restaurants. Maybe the difference is that over here, people do have vacations.
And simple flatbed trailers are even cheaper, under 1k if you’re lucky, new. If you’re DIYing and are transporting material regularly but don’t want a VW Transporter or such (as most contractors would use) those definitely make a lot of sense.
I’m in the “hatchback car or tiny truck” market for my next car.
I got one off of marketplace in great condition for a good deal. It is very practical and fun to drive. Also you get a lot of looks.
Been to Japan lately and can share some photos. There are even Kei Fire Trucks, for the many small roads with wooden houses and shrines etc.
And then there are hundreds of different kei truck and van types for all purposes, even concrete mixers.
Also, private houses in cities are often small and space-saving and so are the cars. A sensible use of public space – and cars only park on private property or rented parking spaces.
This is just freaking adorable!
Neither the fire truck nor the concrete truck are Kei class vehicles.
They are small diesel trucks, yes, but Kei literally means ‘light’ and have strict weight limits on both the weight of the vehicle and how much load they can carry.
Well, those are also not vehicles that the average citizen buys. They’re specialized for their purpose, the fire truck needs to transport a decent amount of water and 4-5 people, and concrete is heavy stuff. But in a certain way they follow the same design philosophy.
That much is certainly true. It’s such a shame that small trucks are not available to buy new in the US.
I will promise you that those two are not even close to the size of traditional versions you’ll see in Germany.
These are rad. Weird they’re not more popular internationally.
WHAT IS THE WHITE HONDA?
I’ve wanted an upgrade to my element but this looks adorbs and 4 door.
Looks like an N-Box. The rear doors are sliding.
TYVM
Ok that black van model goes way harder than it has any right to
The fire truck’s not a kei-- keis have yellow plates
I guess the size has something to do with the size of Japanese roads and back alley space?
Yes in some neighborhoods and villages the roads are so narrow that they can practically only be driven on by Kei cars.
Japan as an Island has limited space available for natural reasons, plus large parts of the country are mountain area. So the old cities have been built in plains and reached high density. Building is strictly regulated.
And that has also grown into the culture. The Japanese sense for efficiency is legendary and so you simply don’t waste space. And in general, you don’t show off with oversized cars. Understatement is part of the general habitus. Shintoism and Buddhism have deep roots and that certainly plays a role too.
I’ve wanted one of these for decades but the options are pay out the ass for import fees or buy a 30 year old model, neither fee great. Hate that my government is apparently dead set on all of us driving massive trucks and SUVs over realist vehicles
It’s almost as if car manufacturers and big oil write the laws to increase their own profit margins…
If these don’t meet road safety requirements then it won’t get better
The giant American trucks don’t meet American road standards…
Yeah, but they’ve got better lobbyists.
The road standards are designed to protect the occupants, not the other users on the road.
This is a critical flaw with current safety and CAFE standards.
What standards do they not meet?
Hate that my government is apparently dead set on all of us
driving massive trucks and SUVsspending thousands to money lenders, auto manufacturers, and dealerships over realist vehicles.Doubly so if those parties are campaign contributors. Always follow the money.
Reminder that due to the chicken tax, these vehicles have to be 25 years old before they can be imported.
The big problem is, these vehicles were built to 30 year old safety standards - no vehicle from the 1990’s (except maybe a SAAB, and even then they’re not strong enough anymore and will fail a small offset frontal) can compete with a modern car in safety requirements.
There is also the fact that these vehicles have been around for 25 years, and have that amount of age and wear on their platform - they won’t be as strong as they originally were off the production line.
no vehicle from the 1990’s (except maybe a SAAB, and even then they’re not strong enough anymore and will fail a small offset frontal) can compete with a modern car in safety requirements.
Americans keep building bigger trucks and raising speed limits, then bemoaning how small vehicles aren’t safe enough to survive an 80mph impact with a 10,000 pound vehicle.
You think these Keis are dangerous? Try riding a bike.
I’d love to ride a train to work. Play on my steam deck on the way home and not have to worry about getting stuck in traffic for hours. Visiting Washington DC and riding the metro everywhere ruined me, now I look at a five lane at road and say “This is bullshit!”.
Even if you could get a new one, I don’t think they’d meet US safety standards. Not even close.
Mind you, the US has to have stringent safety standards because we have gigantic vehicles in the first place.
Kei vehicles are exempt from most Japanese safety standards, because they’re meant for city driving with max speeds of 40-60 kph and everyone driving them knows and acknowledges that you’re just fucked if you get into an accident at speeds higher than that (and not doing great even at 40kph). It’s an explicit trade of safety for lower cost
I call bs, a motorcycle provides way less protection. And which states are they illegal in? Lobbying and another money grab from corporations in our “free market” society. I would love one of these BTW.
I’m always shocked by this. In a world with seatbelt laws, crumple zones, backup cameras, pinch protection, etc we allow people to ride motorcycles that consistently get injured or killed. How they haven’t gotten banned or stupidly restricted is beyond me. Even with a motorcycle lane, getting in a wreck at 75mph would be seriously bad.
In my state, I’m pretty sure you can ride a motorcycle legally with a helmet and a tshirt on, but get pulled over and fined for not wearing a seatbelt, lol.
The seat belt is to prevent you from being thrown through the glass and body/frame of the vehicle. Because that’s generally what kills unseatbelted people in a wreck. A motorcyclist will be thrown from their vehicle if hit but is much less likely to hit that vehicle at 70mph. That’s why you dress for the slide so to speak. It’s about how you land as much as anything. And when you’re inside a vehicle and being tossed around you are basically a reverse pinata.
Motorcycles have different licensing requirements, and come with caveat emptor that they are inherently unsafe in a motor vehicle accident.
That’s not to say bikes don’t have any safety at all… there is R&D that goes into making them safe in a collision… as safe as they can be.
Why can’t we just accept that the KEI is less safe then?
Anyone who buys a Kei car already knows this just by looking at it.
That’s not to say bikes don’t have any safety at all… there is R&D that goes into making them safe in a collision… as safe as they can be.
Yup. I survived a high-side collision after being sideswiped by an SUV. Thanks to modern safety gear, I only had minor injuries with little long-term beyond an ankle to lets me sense slight changes in atmospheric pressure.
And if you get it from Japan it’s right hand drive so visibility of the incoming lane is crap as well…
Also, for Kei trucks specifically, cab over engine vehicles are unsafe in frontal collisions no matter what, even modern ones, that’s why there’s no regular passenger vehicle built like that anymore and it’s only heavier vehicles (like moving trucks) that have this setup, they don’t fall under the same safety regulations.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24499113/
Conclusions: Although we are generally concerned that drivers of small vehicles suffer more severe injuries, our results suggest that, for real-world accidents, K-cars provide similar safety for drivers involved in frontal collisions as standard vehicles in low delta V impact conditions.
Not all Kei cars are Kei trucks with cab over wheels.
“Low delta V impact”. I’m sure a car from the 50s deals with front collisions at 30kph fairly well, but go watch a crash test at highway speeds and tell me you would feel safe.
Freaking lol
Thank god someone said it. This comment makes the most sense of any of the comments I’ve read so far.
What is the too small for road safety thing? That’s pure bullshit, right? Smart cars are legal, how can these not be?
Give us cheap EVs and small trucks god damnit!!!
I guess it’s just the lack of any crumple zone, similar to the VW van your legs are essentially the crumple zone.
Yeah, I’d imagine it’s fine down gridlocked Tokyo streets where you might be doing 20mph.
Probably not so good in a 70mph highway collision though.
IIRC, these things exist to exploit a legal loophole around vehicle registration in Japan as well. Safety is not the highest concern lol
Sounds like some lack basic safety equipment like seat-belts.
It might be more about what vehicles share the road. SUVs and pickups tend to cause the majority of fatalities in crashes because their bumper height basically being non compatible with cars and vans and their larger blindspots… That design might not play particularly well with the Keis in crash situations.
But that being said SUVs and raised pickups are menaces to road safety across the board and we should be looking at phasing them out.
They don’t pass US federal crash tests, probably because of the lack of crumple zone, so they can’t be imported until they’re 25 years old. Which doesn’t make them any safer, but I guess rules are rules:
Because the trucks don’t meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, they’re legal to import only 25 years after having been manufactured. Then, it’s up to each state to decide whether to allow them on public roads.
I have one. No crumple zone. No airbags. Slow acceleration. Can’t reach highway speeds. No headrest.
But it’s my favorite car ever. I just treat it like I’m riding a motorcycle. I’m dead in an accident, so I try to be hyper-aware.
Uh oh, better ban them!
Way ahead of ya!
Map: https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/kei-truck-legal-states
No recorded law: 28
Legal: 19
Illegal: 2
https://keitruckconnect.com/us-states-you-can-drive-kei-trucks/
State-Specific Legality of Kei Trucks: The permissibility of these compact, fuel-efficient vehicles varies across the U.S., largely due to differing safety and environmental standards.
Are Kei Trucks Legal in California? In the Golden State, Kei trucks can be driven on local roads, but not on freeways. This is due to the fact that many of these vehicles are not equipped with EPA-compliant engines for highway use. However, there are no restrictions on their use for off-road activities. Their off-road capabilities make them a popular choice for those in need of a compact work or recreational vehicle.
Are Kei Trucks Legal in Texas? In the Lone Star State, the situation is a bit different. Kei trucks are not street-legal due to the state’s stringent safety standards for passenger vehicles. These trucks often lack standard safety features such as airbags and seatbelts, which can make them less safe in an accident. However, there are exceptions to this rule. If the mini truck is used for agricultural purposes or has been modified to meet the state’s safety standards, it may be allowed on public roads. In these cases, the necessary permits and inspections are required. Laws Governing Kei Trucks in other States. The permissibility of Kei trucks varies greatly across the U.S. For instance, in Alabama, you can use mini trucks on any public roads except interstate highways. The speed limit for these vehicles is 25 mph.
Florida allows registered mini trucks to operate only on streets with a posted speed limit of 35 mph or less. In Louisiana, you can use mini trucks freely with a speed limit under 55 mph. North Carolina allows mini trucks to be licensed and used on all NC roads.
In Washington, mini trucks are street legal. Wyoming permits mini trucks on any roads except for interstate highways. It’s important to note that none of the 50 states allow mini trucks on interstate highways. This is due to safety reasons and the fact that most Kei trucks can only reach a maximum speed of 65 mph, which is lower than the speed limit on interstates.
My state did, otherwise I’d be driving one right now. A friend with a Subaru Sambar is being told hers should not have been allowed to be registered and is trying to fight it.
woulda been nice to know which state
for anyone else:
Map: https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/kei-truck-legal-states
No recorded law: 28
Legal: 19
Illegal: 2
https://keitruckconnect.com/us-states-you-can-drive-kei-trucks/
State-Specific Legality of Kei Trucks: The permissibility of these compact, fuel-efficient vehicles varies across the U.S., largely due to differing safety and environmental standards.
Are Kei Trucks Legal in California? In the Golden State, Kei trucks can be driven on local roads, but not on freeways. This is due to the fact that many of these vehicles are not equipped with EPA-compliant engines for highway use. However, there are no restrictions on their use for off-road activities. Their off-road capabilities make them a popular choice for those in need of a compact work or recreational vehicle.
Are Kei Trucks Legal in Texas? In the Lone Star State, the situation is a bit different. Kei trucks are not street-legal due to the state’s stringent safety standards for passenger vehicles. These trucks often lack standard safety features such as airbags and seatbelts, which can make them less safe in an accident. However, there are exceptions to this rule. If the mini truck is used for agricultural purposes or has been modified to meet the state’s safety standards, it may be allowed on public roads. In these cases, the necessary permits and inspections are required. Laws Governing Kei Trucks in other States. The permissibility of Kei trucks varies greatly across the U.S. For instance, in Alabama, you can use mini trucks on any public roads except interstate highways. The speed limit for these vehicles is 25 mph.
Florida allows registered mini trucks to operate only on streets with a posted speed limit of 35 mph or less. In Louisiana, you can use mini trucks freely with a speed limit under 55 mph. North Carolina allows mini trucks to be licensed and used on all NC roads.
In Washington, mini trucks are street legal. Wyoming permits mini trucks on any roads except for interstate highways. It’s important to note that none of the 50 states allow mini trucks on interstate highways. This is due to safety reasons and the fact that most Kei trucks can only reach a maximum speed of 65 mph, which is lower than the speed limit on interstates.
I think someone who tried to do that might just disappear in this day and age. Don’t ask gen-z, we won’t know.
Besides taking way less space on the road or while parking, you’ll only have to lift your stuff half the way up to the RAM or something like it. I personally like not breaking my back.
smaller, cheaper
Just say better.
They are better vehicles and the ad campaigns for ‘bigger, more expensive’ vehicles are finally hitting their stupid wall.Now lets do SUVs next.
Used commonly in railway maintenance in Japan! This budget friendly truck is favoured by JR which want to cut budget on everything.
That’s nowhere in the same size class as OPs. It’s just the same style with a cab-forward design. It’s probably a 3-ton.
How about this?
That’s the same model. Its a much heavier duty truck than these little flitter trucks referred to in the OP.
I’m not sure what you’re not understanding here.
Should be correct now? Not really good at identifying car.
That’s more like it.
Any idea what that MOW truck is for? The second cab in the rear is really throwing me off.
For towing ?
If it was just for towing it wouldnt have a cab in the rear like that.
The 2nd cab is just so they can drive forward in either direction on the rail.
So people are tired of paying 60 to 90k for an f150 or a Dodge ram? You don’t say!
Here’s where they’re legal, and exactly how legal they are in the US
Many of the “legal” states aren’t all that legal, really.
How long until these are banned ?
We are the party of free market capitalism! We won’t allow rules to stop us from polluting the shit out of everything, we won’t allow rules that will make the world better! We only allow rules that block the competitors of our biggest bribers
Free market for me, not for thee.
This is it basically. People think free markets are bad for humanity, but all the problems are for when people just reach out and stop the free market from happening.
That’s government’s job: maintain an actually free market, where new people can come in and give people what they want, when the existing guys fail to do so.
It takes active input of energy to maintain that state of affairs. There will always be people who want to take control of it in unfair ways and get profit without providing the best value to the people, and it’s in our collective best interests to stop those people. So it’s legit to spend taxes on things like breaking up monopolies or maintaining infrastructure.
Free market doesn’t mean it happens naturally. It used to happen more naturally, because the total amount of power a person could wield over others was limited. But ever since we’ve had armies and ultra wealthy families and huge companies, all of which can exert power over individuals, a free market is a thing which requires government enforcement to maintain.
I think our problem might be that our government isn’t financially dominant. It is militarily dominant, and so it’s able to maintain the relative safety that comes from having a monopoly on violence. But the government doesn’t have a monopoly on financial power and so it can be overpowered by money.
Already are banned in a few states, relegated to being registered as off road vehicles only.
I saw in the article that they are legal in 19 states. I did not see the off road vehicle bit. Interesting, and thanks.
Regardless of bans, I’ve heard these cars are INCREDIBLY hard to import. Not only is getting permits for them difficult, but many places selling them domestically have gone around the laws regarding them, resulting in people’s Kei trucks being taken by the government and shipped back to Japan on their dime.
It’s not an easy thing to get into.
It’s already happening in some states
I’d honestly love one of these, depending in if it’s powerful enough to haul a decently heavy load up a hill.
I woodwork as a hobby, and have been wanting an old truck for a while, but the used truck market is pretty insane right now. All I want is an old beater with a reliable engine and a standard sized bed that’s capable of hauling sheet goods (4ft wide) without hassle.
This would check those marks. If the price was right, I’d happily drive this little guy around.
Instead, the market is full of ridiculously sized pickups with tiny truck beds because either the cab is huge, or they waste so much space making the truck look “tough” that the beds shrink narrower than 4ft.
As long as I can get a small truck in a V6 so that I don’t stall out hauling something heavy like cement bags, I’m in.
Look into Telo trucks. Modern, electric, safe, small. I know they haven’t launched yet, but i have high hopes they get everyone rethinking their pickup choices.
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Yeah, I’ve considered that too. Neither of us have a car with a hitch, and we don’t have a good place to store a trailer for extended periods of time, but it’s an option I’m considering for sure.
U-Haul trailer when you need it?
Essentially what I’ve been doing. HD rental truck. But truck availability and requiring multiple round trips to return and pick up my car means I put it off until I’m blocked, and then needlessly stock up on sheet goods that I might need in the future, but ultimately sit around for a year or two before I use them.
But yeah, this is what I’m doing while I bide my time for truck prices to drop. And I’ve push back a bunch of projects that rely on ply because I just don’t want to deal with the hassle.
To your point, I bet the trailers are probably more readily available. The trucks themselves are very hit or miss in my experience. But there always seems to be trailers in the lot.
At that point, you might as well just rent a pickup.
If you are in the US, look into minivans, or cargo vans. They are not popular here, so you’re not paying the pretty tax on them, and most vans with the rear seats removed can easily fit 4x8 plywood in the back. A beater van with a strong engine should be a lot cheaper than a beater pickup truck.
Yeah, I used to borrow my parents van on occasion, but they got a newer model of the same van (Odyssey) that could no longer fit sheet goods.
Also was pretty awkward tying the trunk door on the occasions where I needed longer material, which I would be doing more of nowadays. And TBH, despite my best efforts to pad things and load materials gently, I did scrap up the interior a bit, which wouldn’t be a factor with a truck.
A work van might do, though. Those seem pretty huge.
A guy in a common group as me owns https://luckysminitrucks.com
Most kei trucks have 3 cylinders. A few have 4. Here’s a starting point.. Here’s another.
