And we shouldn’t allow this concept to go unchallenged here on Lemmy.
Commenting on an active post is not brigading
Posting a link to something is not brigading
Commenting on something you were linked to is not brigading
The only thing that might be brigading, but isn’t because it isn’t a real thing, is someone explicitly going, “Hey everyone, go here and harass this person”
It’s all fine and good that we have some new rules to keep the peace with other instances but we must fight against 
It seems to me that instance has a very evident and festering
problem, which is incredibly strange for what is supposed to be a pro-trans instance.They’re being tone policed down to
levels, but they’re still spreading the same hateful talking points that prevents the free expression that the admin team supposedly desires.This is my first time seeing it first hand but it’s so obvious and transparent that their liberal well intentioned inclusiveness has already backfired horrifically. When hexbear users confront these tone-adjusted fascists and question their hateful anti-left stance (something the mods and admin team should be doing but lack the spine) they cry and demand defed because their views absolutely can not stand up to any sort of serious analysis.
I will say I would not have seen this without federation. It genuinely makes me appreciate the amazing community thats been cultivated here because it’s not easy to challenge, and remove, a polite abuser standing next to you.
If anyone is communicating with their admin team, I think they should be told to wake up because it will only get worse before their community is co-opted and they’re the ones being “tolerated.” I am being constantly reminded of this https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g?t=677
The fact that calling it out plays in to the fascists hands is pretty depressing too.
We remove any instance that blocks us from our allow-list. With that being said I will put any large instance asking to be added to the hexbear Allow-list to a user vote, this applies to lemmy.blahaj.zone regardless of what they decide in a week.
I wanted to reiterate what Melonius said about appreciating the hard work you and the other mods do. You’ve made this such an amazing space and seeing the broader fediverse really brought it home.
Just to clarify what I meant, I personally don’t mind remaining federated but I’m still new here. I think fascists should absolutely be challenged, argued with, and shut down, but it’s not even something I’m totally comfortable with doing myself yet.
I’m condescending because it’s hard to express, but I feel sad for them because I can’t tell if their admin team has been bullied in to submission by that one community or something else. It’s condescending of me because their instance has a ton of history and I can’t possibly comprehend it in the couple of days we’ve been federated. I think all the admin posts I’ve read have been fairly reasonable but are coming from a passive and overly tolerant lib mindset. I still remember being there (still am really) and it’s a horrible feeling.
Anyways, thanks for everything you all do!
I think fascists should absolutely be
challenged, argued with, andshut downThe only option, imo. If we’re talking about arguing in good faith, it’s no use with fascists. Bad faith is their whole point.
I agree, but if we’re on other instances I only mean to correct their bigotry and false statements so others see that they’re wrong.
Ideally they’d be banned already and there’s nothing to respond to.
Can I ask what it means for us to have us defeded and block vs allow them?
I thought if either party blocked the other it was the same as both blocking one another?
that is true, if they block us and we remove them from our allow-list we won’t be able to engage with each other anymore
Just to make sure I understand, if they blocked and we left the allow list as is, that would also be the case, right?
Is it just so the other instance can’t unilaterally turn federation on and off?
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Someone on lemm.ee just posted a drama thread with links to several of our comments. If we did that it would be called brigading. It’s all projection.
I admire your restraint in not linking it. Did they use those obvious wrecker comments or is it just the usual crying about guillotines?
it’s a guy who unironically thinks that america is a democracy and authoritarianism is just another synonym for bad
r/CTH was constantly accused of brigading for the same reason Hexbear is now constantly accused of brigading. We’ve inherited high posting activity from CTH, and now that we’re federated we have the ability to see posts from and comment to other instances. That’s it. They are basically complaining that we post too much and that we disagree with them, then they equate that to brigading.
It happened all the time to users on r/CTH who happened to use other subreddits. We’d be accused of brigading just for having a history of posting in r/CTH while posting normally in other subreddits. Accusations of brigading should be entirely dismissed unless there exists evidence of organization with the intent to swarm a particular community.
Reddit doesn’t have issues with brigading anymore, because brigading is when you post on r/ChapoTrapHouse and also post on other subreddits.
I suppose it follows that Lemmy brigading is when you post on Hexagonal Bear dot Net and also post on other lemmy instances.
when you post on r/ChapoTrapHouse
Have you been around long enough to remember the obsession with ShitRedditSays?
SRS was so powerful for it’s size. Rent free in the heads of every Redditor to this day
Yeah. Incredibly powerful posting energy. Kinda sad its a ghost town now.
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Reddit, the site that’s designed to have as many eyes as possible look at as wide a variety of posts as possible to bring about engagement has rules against the wrong people engaging.
Rule #1: do not be a communist
Pretty much. And don’t upvote the wrong things. And definitely don’t fuck up their idea of how the algo should work because you post too much.
brigading is when you post in a thread from a different instance that’s on your front page
How dare you comment on my thread I put on the internet to attract comments on!!! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
<— libs when Hexbears existWHY ARE THERE SO MANY RUSSIAN CCP BOTS ON MY INTERNET
The thing that annoys me is the widespread misconception among the lib instances that Hexbear users are just out there spamming PPB on every other instance, when in reality it’s much more common that someone starts calling us hate speech spewing Russian bots or whatever and people start responding to that. Oh no, the consequences of my actions
Anothe thing that happens frequently is someone posts something well-crafted in good faith and then a lib responds ”I’m not reading that Kremlin/Chinese propaganda, troll!”, so who are the ones actually not interested in arguing here?
Well yeah, but it’s okay when people call us bots because we’re genocide denying turbo tankies. When we take offense we are in the wrong. This is called “Civility”.
It’s like “Talking back” that adults pull on children. Kids can’t figure out what they did wrong because they didn’t do anything wrong. Their crime is existing. Our crime is being outside the Overton Window. Nothing we can do will ever be acceptable.
disco elysium moralism quote
It’s like “Talking back” that adults pull on children.
!!! I had somehow forgotten about this phrase, even though it was my most frequent infraction and has shaped all of my dealings with children. It still baffles and hurts me that so many adults would rather get mad at kids for having feelings, opinions, and questions than talk to them like they’re actual people.
Literally cannot imagine being this narcissist towards kids now that I’m old. I heard this fucking thing so much growing up
It was so awful. I tried so hard to understand what i was doing wrong and it wasn’t until decades later that i realized that i never did anything. “Talking back” just meant being noticed in any way. It’s a horrid way to treat people.
I get angry just by reading the phrase, ugh
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Your posting has been so powerful since you joined.
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Seriously, it’s like you’ve been here since the beginning lol
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tfw your bussy became the 6th Chaos God in the Immaterium
10/10 would worship
They arnt, theyre just interested in silencing us because they dont realize they have extremely conservative tendencies!
They arnt ready or willing to examine their contradictions because they arnt unhappy yet.
I’ve posted PPB exactly twice. Once when someone was whining about “I wish tbe hexbears werent here” and once again when someone said “tankie says what” in response to a well written reply (from a lemmygrad comrade)
Another part that adds to this notion is that libs generally only encounter crudeness from literal children or right wingers.
They think the real world politics is some West Wing-ian paradise of polite discussions and good faith arguments. Only MAGAs resort to ad hominem, ofc, Donald Trump is bad partly because of bad policies but mainly because he’s crude! Good Republicans are polite and also want what’s good for the country, they just disagree on methods!
This probably stems from anti-civil rights movements saying the blacks are impolite or crude when demanding basic human decency.
Also historically untrue, on at least one occasion, Abe Lincoln bullied an opponent to tears with ad hominem attacks.
Either way, they fully buy into the scam that politeness and taking the high road will win the day except the part where liberalism has been in decay for decades due to what basically amounts to stomping your feet at conservatives every time they slide into fascism.
And they keep doing it, Sisyphus with the rock, Charlie Brown with the ball, libs with politeness. Guess what? Not disrupting evil in any meaningful way means they get to continue to make things worse and get away with it.
This probably stems from anti-civil rights movements saying the blacks are impolite or crude when demanding basic human decency.
Likely, and even before that. Using clothes, language, hairstyles, accent, pronunciation to separate the “good” people from teh “bad” people goes back to forever. That’s a big part of how Hexbear even happened; Verbal vulgarity and insults and cruelty that was appropriate to the lies, deception, and normalization of horror coming from the Democrats. “We’re going to talk to you with the level of consideration and politeness you deserve, which is none you fucking monsters”.
on at least one occasion, Abe Lincoln bullied an opponent to tears with ad hominem attacks.
This might sound a little
but in highschool my history class had a facebook group for discussing the politics that came up from the readings and discussions for us to turn into essay bits and junk. We had a conservative weenie in there and while I was very far from being a raging communist or even a socialist the both of us got into it about healthcare laws and other bullshit which eventually just turned into me berating him for just straight up lying about the laws and policies, the fact that he read the entire obamacare law (LOL). Everyone fucking hated all of his shit I got so much praise from everyone in that group, including my future girlfriend. The only time debate was ever tangibly good for me.That brings back memories of how one of my poli-sci classes back in college usually ended up with me shouting down some reactionary while the professor just did nothing. And I was just a tepid sucdem who read Matt Taibi’s tripe back then too lmao.
posting links is how the world wide web works
http is hypertext transport protocol
what is hypertext?
hypertext is text with hyperlinks to other hypertext.
Got a problem with hyperlinks? Well get off the world wide web and go be a magazine or some shit.
Or just say “Hey hexbear please don’t participate in this post” and we respect that request and don’t
no, why should we?
We shouldn’t, I’m just pointing out that when we have been asked not to participate, we haven’t.
And now the mod of /c/196 is shitting all over Carcosa, just rubbing shit all over Carcosa and our collective faces. This is what happens when you try to pander to bad faith liberals. Why must we collectively give rimjobs to these fucking losers?
😞
I agree. It’ll suck if the two instances with the largest trans communities on lemmy defederate, but there seems to be irreconcilable political differences here that will make continued federation impossible.
From what I see, most users on blahaj, especially the 196 community specifically, have swallowed the state department party line hook, line, and sinker. If you literally believe in all of the CIA atrocity propaganda, then you also believe “tankies” are fascists pretending to be leftists. This disagreement is fundamental, and it can not be fixed by any degree of increased civility or politeness.
And from the looks of their discussion thread on continued federation with Hexbear, it’s their admin more than anyone else delaying the inevitable defederation, their users are mostly cheering to cut us off. They’ve given us one week to see how it goes, but I don’t feel confident things will change.
When they do end up defederating, I hope the new c/the_dunk_tank rules can be repealed because it seems they’ve been put in place nearly entirely to appease blahaj.
To me, it’s no longer just ideology but how their administrative team is completely slimey. Why would the admin bother to have this sham poll when it’s really obvious a supermajority of people would instantly vote to defed from us? It goes back to my comment about people acting in bad faith. She already knows the userbase wants to defed from us and she probably wants to defed from us too, but she doesn’t want to own up to being the person to pull the plug of the great trans federation, so she’s going to have this sham poll, wait for the very predictable result, and say, “Sorry, I wanted the federation to work, but the userbase wants to defed and I place the needs of my userbase first,” in effect pushing responsibility away from herself. This is extremely transparent in what she’s trying to do, extremely obvious to people who weren’t born yesterday.
Great, now they get to portray us as 4chan Nazis or whatever they like after we’re gone uncontested.
Hexbear double genocide theory, exploding heads Nazis yelling slurs at you is the same as hexbear users calling you a liberal
I like how they’re also preloading some arguements that if the vote is to stay federated, it’s hexbears voting with socks. Then the admin says they’ll adjust how the totals are counted until it seems legit to them.
If hexbear users are fired up enough to vote tamper, it’s going to be for defed, because they don’t particularly like blahaj.
Ah yes, my favorite liberal democracy move, adjusting the totals until it ‘makes sense’.
Then the admin says they’ll adjust how the totals are counted until it seems legit to them.
Its the June 4th Tiannemen thing that gets me. The 1932 famine is complicated. There’s plenty of room to just say "look all these reputable historians say terror famine! You can just ignore the tankie historians who say it was complicated. But there’s nothing complicated about June 4th. What they think happen didn’t happen, it’s widely agreed that it didn’t happen. I don’t even know who is still spreadying this bullshit.
I don’t even know who is still spreadying this bullshit.
Every neoliberal thinktank and media outlet. What the historical record says is irrelevant in that context.
What the historical record says is irrelevant in that context.
I’m getting high school level understanding of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact thrown at me as an example of fascist/communist sympathy/equivalence.
Yeah, I personally haven’t seen that gem specifically from blahaj, but they say shit that stupid and worse. It’s like they get their views from those shitty revisionist history youtube channels following the Hardcore History wave.
Yeah, that shit sucked. Bummed me out.
I read that whole thread today at work, once I get home I gotta hug my dog and touch grass. Big sad.
If the purpose is to convert people via federation, it’s good to remember that nobody likes being told what a fucking idiot they are and how selfish they are and that their whole worldview is wrong. I’m not trying to defend libs here, but it’s very rare that arguments are won on the internet. If someone makes a false claim then correct them and leave it for other people to read, but there is no point getting caught up in debates with people who probably don’t have much interest in politics anyway.
Who says we were ever trying to ‘convert people’? That’s not how these things work. If they have an interest in reading further and developing their understanding, they will do it themselves. We cannot and should not try to hand-hold online people.
The internet is for dunking, chapo posting is understanding that what this entire place is, and what it is good for, is skinner-box behaviorism. Hit the button, get a treat, hit another button, get a shock. They don’t like the shock, that is why they are bitching about us. But if they got a treat, then their brain stops working and they move onto getting the next treat.
These are things that people have either forgotten, or lessons that need to be re-learned about generalized posting.
It’s not just that you can’t convert them so you shouldn’t try, it’s that by antagonizing them you push them even further away from mutual understanding. We set up the pretense that all their future interactions with leftists will be no better than the time their shit opinion got PPB’d. It’s not rational, but it’s how this stuff often goes. I get the frustration of being met with absolute nonsense when you’re trying to have a proper discussion with someone, but I think we also have to consider the ramifications of creating an absolute shitstorm whenever someone posts uninformed bullshit.
FWIW I am pretty new here so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but when I first encountered a bunch of bears in a thread my first thought was “what the fuck is wrong with these people.” I had to sift through many pictures of shit-smeared pig testicles to find out what Hexbear was really about, and even further to find out that you’re all a bunch of really great people. Not everyone will take the time necessary to separate the rhetoric from the culture like I did out of curiosity. Most will see the worst and form hasty, unfair conclusions about the community and it will only poison their interactions going forward. It sux and I don’t think Hexbear should water down its culture for the sake of any other community, but I think we all could do with being a little more mindful of how aggro we can be when we dunk and what it looks like to people who just want to laugh at shit memes on their phone.
[Sankara quote]
This isn’t an attempt to develop Africa and convince multiple at-odds ethnic groups to develop their country in harmony and not backstab each other for political dominance. It’s posting habits and practices in an obscure online Western forum.
Marxism and materialism are not about blindly applying idealist quotations from people in vastly different material circumstances, it is about recognizing the particular material circumstances you are in and behaving accordingly.
Eh, ok, i disagree that the quote cant be applied to these circumstances but otherwise fair enougj.
I don’t know what the purpose is. I haven’t really communicated with the “real world” on reddit in a couple of years now and seeing what the “real world” of reddit is like - shocking politic ignorance, bizarre faith in long since discredited and discarded propaganda, willfull ignorance mixing with genuine ignorance mixing with incuriousness, I don’t know how we could possibly have a positive interaction with, frankly, redditors.
there is no point getting caught up in debates with people who probably don’t have much interest in politics anyway.
The problem is that everything is politics, and everything is specifically vicious, destructive liberal politics. It doesn’t matter if it’s bike infrastructure or treatment at work or the weather; It’s all deeply entwined with politics and most of us on Hexbear are completely rabid political animals who’ve gotten really used to not letting lies and falsehoods go uncommented on. Fedditors are posting “normal” things without realizing how deeply those things are tied in to their liberal brainworms, then we… do our thing - That’s not the case, this is what’s really happening, fifty citations, here’s why people think that, here’s what we think is more accurate… and they’re calling us tankie bots again.
It’s a lose lose.
Debate perverts are the real sickos.
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Caveat: yes when you show someone why they’re fucked up and wrong they will mentally block that out. But at the same time 100 to 1000 people will see that thread without commenting, and a lot of them will find your point convincing.
Ever post an imgur link to reddit? It has a view counter, and when your reddit thread gets like 45 upvotes and 7 comments, that’s 10,000 hits to the imgur post
Everyone knows that any form of dissent is actually brigading, and the more dissent there is, the more you’re being brigaded.
The brigading claims get extremely annoying when it’s made by someone who just posted something extremely wrong and is now getting corrected by a bunch of people with more knowledge of the facts.
I forgot how fragile and cowardly liberals on the internet are. Hexbear has spoiled me because you get actual communication with people who are willing to defend their beliefs in a passionate, level way without getting nasty.
Even just calmly telling someone “hey we can’t downvote you” is seen as harassment
I almost think we should bring back down voting now that we’re federated. We keep bumping posts we disagree with by constantly “dunking” on them. This ensures that the most hostile hexbear content is constantly on other instances front page. Libs will still complain about brigading but it won’t be in their face anymore.
voting on comments is a broken idea.
there’s this terminally reddit-brained sense I think that even when you’re powerless to argue you can still get a little hit of smug satisfaction by using your power as a vooooter to make your voice heard. I’ve been in too many reddit discussions where the thread is scored 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0 etc because the dumbshit lib I was talking to was shaking with nerdrage and smashing downvote on all of my comments the instant I hit submit
even at its best the whole idea is laughable, that you can use votes as a kind of consensus protocol to figure out which comments are good. I imagine a medieval herald unfurling a big scroll and proclaiming the final tally-
+3 from the few people who are already familiar with the subject
-5 from people who are thinking about this for the first time in their lives and aren’t convinced
-3 from tone police who think the other person was being more civil
-5 from people who vaguely recognize that the comment is arguing against someone on their team and get defensive
-20 from dogpilers who don’t really have an opinion but see that the score is already negative and want to do their dutypublic voting breeds annoying echo chambers. everyone looks at the scores to see who’s right and then thinks they’ve learned something even though there’s no signal in there. the notion that whoever happens to be around is even equally qualified to have an opinion on something is kind of a wild leap, and not how anything usually works outside of reddit. that fiction is constantly breaking down and you end up having to police “brigading” and deal with awful power posters getting a huge advantage from name recognition. reddit isn’t stupid and has been trying to unfuck it for the last 10 years with raid detection and crosspost limits and options like hiding scores on new comments. I remember slashdot experimenting to figure out an answer even another decade earlier. on the orange site you need a ton of karma to use the downvote button at all. the default lemmy model of upvoting/downvoting just does not work
I don’t think I ever used reddit again after hex removed downbears, it’s that much better. everything feels different. I mean I still don’t like hex - upbears aren’t great and everyone should be anonymous - but it’s a lot better than reddit
Yeah Reddit’s name could have been “Promote or Censor” because that is literally what the point of the whole site is, and they even have a threshold at which it literally hides the comments and you have to expand it by clicking a barely-visible button
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microblogging services are the gold standard I think, just cause someone’s going to RT/QRT anything worth seeing. mastodon’s local feed is comfy too
Maybe we should also remove upbears?
But I use that number for validation
I like when my silly takes get upbeared, makes me feel supported by the community 🫂
Although it might stimulate more discussion, as comments would be the only way to interact with something
I remain steadfast in my belief that we should replace upbears with react emojis, filled from the emotes we use regularly but are legible when shrunk down.
I was opposed to even having upvotes back in the early months of the site. I still don’t like it, although it does effectively trigger the monkey-brain “number go up” impulse that can drive further posting.
Yeah and we do need some way of surfacing GOOD POSTs
That’s an issue with the active algorithm that allows posts to stay afloat on the top of the feed for too long. I don’t think it’s worth compromising hexbear culture by reintroducing down votes.
Ideally if we post on an instance that allows down votes then we should be allowed to down vote. But I imagine the logistics of that would be hard.
nah, downvotes suck. I prefer not having them, period. people should reply if they want to disagree.
Nah downvotes are awful. They make discussions worse, fewer people will turn to explaining themselves through comments, and they can facilitate targeted trolling while staying hidden (I think this was actually why we got rid of them the first time). Also it’s really funny being able to point out that we don’t even have downvotes when we’re accused of brigading or whatever elsewhere in the fediverse
At the same time I dont think just sending PPB/posthog is particularly more constructive than a dozen down votes. I do still want to encourage actual responses.
Oh yeah, totally. Some people are way too loose with the ppbs out there
We don’t need it. Just use lemmy and engage.
Let them rant about downvotes and brigading as much as they like. We’re not downvoting or using any kind of targeted harassment and they’re still running scared.
nah
