What I think could make Lemmy superior to Reddit is the ability to create themed-instances that are all linked together which feels like the entire point. I’ve noticed that a lot of instances are trying to be a catch-all Reddit replacement by imitating specific subs which is understandable given the circumstances but seems like it’s not taking advantage of the full power that Lemmy could have.
Imagine for a moment that instances were more focus-based. Instead of having communities that are all mostly unrelated we had entire instances that are focused on one specific area of expertise or interest. Imagine a LOTR instance that had many sub-communities (in this case “communities” would be the wrong way to look at it, it would be more like categories) that dealt with different subjects in the LOTR universe: books, movies, lore, gaming, art, etc all in the same instance.
Imagine the types of instances that could be created with more granular categories within to better guide conversations: Baseball, Cars, Comics, Movies, Tech etc.
A tech instance could have dedicated communities for news, programming, dev, IT, Microsoft, Apple, iOS, linux. Or you could make it even more granular by having a dedicated instance for each of those because there’s so many categories that could be applied to each.
What are your thoughts?
I think the main point of decentralization is to spread the burden of hosting around so that no individual has control of the system. I think having themed servers like what you’re suggesting would aid in discoverability of different communities, but the downside is that that would mean individual servers would have monopolies on certain subjects.
Exactly. Also, people might not want their handle being associated with a specific niche hobby they have, though they might be there a lot/all the time (e.g. I don’t want to be “ewe@hentainsfw”, but I sure as shit am going to be spending a lot of time there).
I kind of feel like it would be best if we had some “user” instances that are nice and always up and most of the communities lived on “community” instances either grouped or just spread out. That way if any single community gets too big on an instance, it doesn’t necessarily bog a bunch of users down as well (e.g. all the users on lemmy.ml that are hamstrung by being on the overloaded hardware on that instance).
Hopping between instances would have to be simplified significantly.
I don’t understand what you mean. Isn’t the point of federation that one account on one instance is as good as an account on every instance? I’ve never felt the need to hop between instances.
OP’s post is about having specialized instances, making hopping around necessary. It’s not convenient enough as it is.
Making specialized instances does not in any way make hopping around necessary. If you join a specialized instance that doesn’t already sub to the communities you want, you just add them.
Example: I join a Star Trek themed instance that has a bunch of locally created star trek communities. I want to sub to all those, but i ALSO want to sub to the homelab community on beehaw. I just subscribe to !homelab@beehaw.org FROM the star trek instance I am a member of. That star trek instance will then start syncing the homelab content from beehaw and you can read and reply from the star trek instance.
Conversely, if someone has an account on beehaw.org and they want to read a star trek community based on that star trek instance, they just need to sub to it FROM beehaw.org.
I know. We all know.
Convenience is the issue here. You can’t directly go to an instance and start subscribing, you need to take unnecessary detours.
By hopping around, do you mean changing your account to one on another instance, or viewing a list of communities on an instance, or something else?
I don’t feel that changing accounts is necessary because of the magic of federation. But I don’t know how to view a list of communities in an instance without leaving your home instance. That would be a cool feature, but is only really important when you’re initially picking all your subscriptions.
Exactly, it’s really inconvenient right now. And it’s really important for the usability of what OP suggested.
If I simply link to a cool community I found, like https://beehaw.org/c/programming, you can’t follow that link conveniently if you’re from another instance.
And I highly disagree with only being important at the start. It’s a big hurdle that stifles growth right now and in the future.
Agreed, what needs to happen is an option that allows users to follow links from foreign instances in their home instance seamlessly. I have to imagine with the ramped up amount of development in lemmy that some of the devs must be working on it.
You can definitely sub to external communities from a separate instance, I have a bunch from Lemmy.ml show up in my world feed
I never claimed otherwise.
Yes you can subscribe to and read that community from any lemmy instance. You just need to add it if the instance doesn’t already federate with it.
Go to ‘Communities’ at the top of your instance homepage then in the search bar put the url of the community you want to add. (example: https://beehaw.org/c/programming)
This next part is undocumented, and might just be a bug. But this is the magic part.
On the next page, change the search dropdown from Communities to ALL.
You will see the community you want to sub to in the results. It will say something like.
Programming@beehaw.org - 0 subscribersClick it, then on the top right pane click “Subscribe”
Done
Jesus Christ. I’m well aware of how you can subscribe to other instances. This is about convenience, with problems arising from situations like I described above.
Having some additional messaging about how communities work, and how to subscribe to them would help. I’m sorry that I assumed you didn’t know how to do that. I meant no offense but there’s no harm in providing free information that you (or someone else reading this post) might not know about.
There’s no way for an instance to know that you have an account on some other instance so the subscribe button assumes you are a local user. Maybe that could be addressed in the future, I don’t know what the plans are.
At a minimum I would think the subscribe button could have some logic that can detect whether you are logged in or not and then give you some options. Like, log into your account if you have one on this instance, or if you don’t here are instructions for adding this community to YOUR instance.
That’s more of the interface you’re using a fault for not interpreting links correctly - it should be obvious that url/c/communityname should be interpreted as a community, just as !communityname@instance.org (right now jerboa is interpreting it as an email address) should also be interpreted as one, and if you remove the ! It should be interpreted as a username.
But most interfaces are open source, so give them time and someone (maybe even you) can submit a pull request that fixes it. That’s the beauty of open source - in time the bugs get ironed out because it’s a collaborative effort.
If I simply link to a cool community I found, like https://beehaw.org/c/programming, you can’t follow that link conveniently if you’re from another instance.
I saw that something like !programming@beehaw.org should work. It doesn’t work for me now though
That’s the string you need to put in the search and go through there. Clunky and inconvenient.
The funny part is that the search also returns posts where that link works, but don’t know what the issue here is. Regardless, copy+pasteing a universal link should be an easy thing to do and not require manual typing.
Edit: Okay, so to do those links you have to type it out like you would a reddit link:
[!programming@lemmy.ml](/c/programming@lemmy.ml)which results in !programming@lemmy.mlSo it’s actually the /c/programming@Lemmy.ml link that make it works like federation, so the ‘!’ has no purpose? It’s weird, I imagined it like @ and # at other platforms, and actually at lemmy’s GitHub page readme you can see they mention the tagging just like that, like it works the same as other platforms. What are we missing here hahaha
No, that’s not right You can follow any community from any instance with your account, doesn’t matter where you registered your account. I just subscribed to https://beehaw.org/c/programming (/c/programming@beehaw.org) from lemmy.pt user account
this is buggy. Pardon the nsfw, but it doesn’t work for gonewild@lemmynsfw .com
Having the ability to link your account to different instances might be a way to solve that, or you have the ability to keep accounts separate depending on the instance. Right now we can link specific communities from other instances to another instance which is great, but being able to switch instances easily from one master account would be pretty great
I’m currently working on a Lemmy mobile client and have implemented multi-accounts until it’s easier to do this. Basically you can make multiple accounts on different instances and aggregate the data from them all into a single feed. It doesn’t currently prioritize posting from specific accounts (you just select a primary)–I’m trying to figure out a good way to go about doing it so you can section things off 👀
Why do you need multiple accounts on different instances. You can have an account join a community on a different instance.
How? I know I can follow a community but I can’t get a general feed of that instance. That’s the issue they’re solving
Same reason people have multiple accounts on other sites. You don’t always want your comments on local news to intersect your comments in a professional community or your comments on a game site. Storing them on other instances is another small layer of security.
That’s cool. Unfortunately, I browse on desktop.
Not necessarily! I’m doing it in Flutter which can do desktop and web export (though web doesn’t feel native).I only specifically called out mobile since that’s what I’m targeting, but nothing stops be from putting out a desktop client
@_finger_
We can have both generic instances and instances around a particular topic.We already have a few lemmy dedicated to a particular community like latte.isnot.coffee and startrek.website
AI and machine learning tech instance over here looking for members. ran themed communities BEFORE reddit and slashdot, doing it again.
My thoughts are what if the instance admins or mods are pricks? What if the instance shuts down?
I think the power of the fediverse is that there is redundancy with the communities on different instances. I feel like it’s a very human need to have everything neatly organized and in its place, but the internet is all about redundancy to ensure no single points of failure.
The fediverse mimics that by creating a web of small related communities, spread out over multiple instances, ran by different people, rather than a giant single community for one thing, on one instance, run by one person.
This was the case with Reddit as well, there were a lot of competing subs created due to shitty mods and rules so I don’t think it’d be much different in this case
The real issue with instances shutting down is losing access to a user account. Correct me if I’m wrong, but there would be no way to login/recover an account from an offline instance.
There was a r/Yankees subreddit that had awful mods, so some people created r/Nyyankees and basically everyone moved there.
actually, the fediverse isn’t about redundancy. It’s about interoperability. Anyone being able to host their own “reddit” and still being able to communicate with the other “reddits”.
And the interoperability does bring resilience to the whole, because if a part of the system goes down (or goes to sh_t), then it’s only that part. But resilience is not quite the same as redundancy.
For redundancy you’re more looking at something like nostr, which functions with relays that can replicate the content being posted from all users of the network.
I don’t agree. If I like LOTR and giraffes I don’t want to create an account on both “instance groups”. I want to do like today and create a single account, then subscribe to the communities I am interested in wherever they are.
To me it sounds like you are sort of mixing up community location and community discovery. This is sort of the case right now because instances have a list of local communities but I think that it is best that they are separated. For example on Reddit I don’t generally find new communities by scanning the entire list of communities. I usually find them when someone mentions a related community in a comment of a community that I am already in. Or when I stumble across a community when searching the web. When you discover and subscribe to communities this way it doesn’t really matter where they are hosted or if they are grouped. You can organically discover things that interest you over time (although I agree that it can be a bit slow to start).
If I like LOTR and giraffes I don’t want to create an account on both “instance groups”.
But you don’t have to create accounts on multiple instances. You can subscribe, post, and mod communities on other federated servers.
But then what’s the point of separating them into instances in the first place?
Then what happens when the owner of the giraffe instance goes all Spez on us?
Too much control is a bad thing. Let people spread those communities across all instances, otherwise I’ll be asking:
How am I to live without my giraffes?!
What about when the owner of the general purpose instance closes the whole instance over some BS in the WhyIsThisIllegal community and now your girrafe gifs are collateral damage? You going to stick your neck out them then?
Of course I won’t, but, the beauty of this is that you can just create another community in another instance. That way, my giraffe viewing party continues no matter where they reside.
You can subscribe and post on different instances. But, I don’t think all pertinent communities should be on one CENTRALIZED instance since that defeats the point of the Fediverse.
This is good but at the moment the user base isn’t big enough to support splitting interests like that.
I think it will more of less follow that path naturally in the years to come, if it ever catches on. You can already see this happening with some instances (ie lemmy.ca mostly devoted to canadian topics, etc)
You have to remember that the amount of lemmy servers exploded in the past week or so. We’re pretty much figuring this out collectively
I agree. I think it’s going to be a bit of column A and a bit of column B. There will be the large general instances. Along with more regional and topical instances like feddit.de and programming.dev. Then a whole bunch of small instances that represent the long tail.
waveform.social is handling a lot of music-making topics. I think this is better than simply being region based. I understand the need for communities of different languages but I don’t really understand the need for ones specific to different english-speaking regions. Instances based on similar interests makes the most sense to me.
I don’t really understand the need for ones specific to different english-speaking regions
Makes perfect sense for regional events. This can be anything like weather, disasters, military excercises, cultural or sports events, regional politics, infrastructure projects, astronomy …
On my local subreddit, I was able to check what that noise was that I just heard, where all the emergency vehicles are racing towards, or follow hilarious regional stories.
Of course, for non-regional topics like music (unless it’s a regional event) I’d go to a non-regional sub or community.
It may make a difference in speed if you are closer to the actual server (IE, it’s in your country)
I don’t think that’s much of a concern for this type of web browsing. Sure gaming and anything else where ping matters is going to be greatly improved by being closer to a server but considering you can ping pretty much anywhere in the world from anywhere else in the world in under half a second I don’t see proximity to the server being that important for something like Lemmy.
I guess it’s the point of the fediverse as far as I understand. Kind of like being members of a bunch of old school forums. Unfortunately for me it’s not really what I’m looking for, and I like the unified aspect of reddit.
unified is nice, but if i’ve learnt anything over the past 9-10 years as a redditor, it means you’re at the mercy of admins and power mods. And because it’s become the go-to forum, it’s gotten so much attention from stealth marketers and bots (it’s hard not to unsee such posts once you learn to identify them), and karma whores trying to get the first witty remark in so it’ll get boosted up into the first top-level comment.
I kinda like the idea of a fediverse - it’s like a bunch of forums, but connected in a way that makes it so much easier to browse and read all of them, and doesn’t have the “centralisation of power” problem reddit has.
There’s nothing stopping you as a user from subbing to different communities on all of those instances to get a feed exactly how you like it.
The only difference would be that mods would belong to an instance themed around their interest with a like-minded admin for it. Also, you could pick more niche topics than you can now. Let’s say I’m into tech, but I don’t care about AI. I could go to the Tech themed instance, pick the news and linux communities from there, sub to those and get them in my feed while ignoring the ai related communities.
Unified is bad, always. If you need examples look at Windows, Android, iOS, Facebook, Amazon. Having a large selection roughly equal options promotes improvement AND cooperation. For example the Linux ecosystem is made up of hundreds of distributions that make a number of major choices about their systems but still allow the user to run the same software.
I disagree with the example of operating systems, unfortunately. Linux in my experience is just a worse user experience than either Windows or Mac OS. I know that probably won’t be a popular opinion around here, but I think that most users would agree as well. I’ve never used a linux OS that was intended for daily use that felt anywhere near as intuitive and easy to understand as Windows or Mac os.
I agree with you in general, but I think that what naturally tends to happen in markets is that one product gets improved to the point of being “the best” among its competitors and starts to really pull away, and once people are in they are in- most people don’t want to switch from the OS they have, to use your example, to another one unless their current OS is REALLY not doing something they need to be able to do to the point where switching would be easier.
A lot of platforms don’t start out intending to completely, 100% outcompete everyone else in their marketspace- I actually think Amazon is a great example of that. But once they start to take over, they don’t stop because the economic system we have makes it both very difficult to do so and also very lucrative to keep it going
And in some things, unity is kind of a good thing. I think Lemmy (and the rest of the fediverse for that matter) needs to figure out a way to centralize user logins- the fact that your instance could get taken down by its creators and lose your account altogether isn’t a great one. Yes, that’s a risk with a site like Reddit too, but it’s significantly less likely over there.
Maybe now but before it was big it definitely wasn’t. They had few employees and I’m sure the security wasn’t always as good as it is now there.
Decentralization is a key foundation of Bitcoin and other encryption things as I’m sure you know. What Lemmy needs is some basic infographics that explains everything visually. It’d be much easier to show or post an image then text about all this stuff.
I agree that this seems to be the intent behind Lemmy. But, I also think that, right now, there is such a big influx of people that need accounts that we need to route them into as many instances as possible to keep server stress down. And that means that a lot of communities will be generalized by the new users.
I agree with other comment that this will likely happen organically over time. After things stabilize I think we’ll see communities begin to merge with identical or similar communities on other instances. And at that point server admins can start to take a bit more of a firm hand with their instances to try and do exactly what you’re describing, if that’s what they really wanted.
Currently users of Lemmy are “power users”. The fact that power users can’t even work out how to use Lemmy ‘properly’ is sign of its future
Idk, I got here and I’m sort of an idjit
It’s arguably a sign that there is need for refinement, but don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, jeez. Every platforms’ early days were much like this. Reddit was pretty shit at first. YouTube was pretty shit at first. And so on.
Nothing comes to life without teething pains. We’re literally on day two for most users, it’s bizarre to be saying anything about Lemmy’s future this early.
It’s not like it’s a finished product. It’s a Work in Progress. I’m watching the progress of the project for some time, and it seems for me that the first priority was to get the UX on one instance right (which IMHO makes totally sense). Basic federation support came more recently and will get better, I’m sure of it. Once that is a more smooth experience I think it will organically get more diverse.
Power users?
It’s a term that broadly refers to people with more experience in a technology and more ability to extract use from it.
Unfortunately, unlike youtube, Lemmy has a lot of refined competition already for people to jump to out of frustration
What competition? Do you have links?
Reddit?
Wouldn’t the risk be though, that an instance devoted to music, for example, would mean that all music discussion would fall under the control of a single mod/team, opening us up to the kind of controlling shenanigans Reddit was pulling?
And were the instance to go down, it would take everything on that topic with it.
I realise that people would still be free to make their own community on any topic on any instance, but if instances were topic themed, they would likely soon dominate any “independent” communities on that same topic.
All that said, I still have a limited understanding of the fediverse, so perhaps it’s not an issue.
I definitely see the point but I think the beauty is that there’s nothing stopping someone from creating a competing themed instance in the event that a mod is a shithead. The ability to link external instances is a great feature but it can get a tad tedious to link all the ones you like from each source. The problem I think is deciding how to choose which instance is your “main” that you’d use to link all external content to.
Maybe a way to solve that problem is to not mimic Reddit’s subreddit architecture, so that if I create a Star Wars or LOTR community on an instance that I could also add sections within it for specific topics. I wouldn’t want tags to be a thing because it’s just a search filter essentially, having separate sections would add a greater ability to organize topics to their respective places similar to how a forum works.
I love how y’all have just invented what we used to refer to as “a forum” 😂
Before reddit, Badger and Blade was a forum dedicated to traditional wet shaving, with sub forums for double edged razors, single edge razors, old school straight razors, badger hair brushes, different shaving soaps, and some other nice manly things like knives or fountain pens or leather goods or what have you.
If people didn’t like B&B, there was also The Shave Den, a similar forum with different mods and different rules and some similar sub forums.
For tech you could (and still can) join linustechtips.com or there were probably others for Chris Parillo or TWiT or Cali Lewis or whatever.
I agree with what you’re saying. I’ve been contemplating back and forth about whether I should create a board game instant where you gather various board game discussions in the same instant.
I think it’s worth a try to see what happens, the concern of giving too much power to one instance for one topic is definitely valid but there’s also a benefit to it as well. Maybe Im looking at it wrong, in that the accounts are separated for each instance so for example if I wanted to only see posts from your board game instance I’d need to switch accounts rather than add all the communities to my .world instance which could get messy and not preferable in some cases. What might make it more effective and granular is the ability to add multiple categories or topic sections in your instance. For instance if you created a board games community in Lemmy.world there’s no ability to do this aside from creating separate communities for each subcategory of niche interests. So instead of being able to create Lemmy.world/boardgames/StarWars or Lemmy.world/boardgames/LOTR you have to create Lemmy.world/starwarsboardgames or Lemmy.world/lotrboardgames. which can get a bit messy.
Would be nice if it was “divided” by user types too. Imagine a post about a new Marvel movie and you could view a shared comment thread but also filter to remove “marvel-fans”, or see only “cineasts”, without leaving the thread. Could lead to more bubbles, but could also make it really easy to see what other bubbles are thinking.
Would they give the ability to categorize or stereotype your own account? That could get messy ha
I don’t really think we need a rule to it. And honestly, what about when themes overlap? Do we get dividing communities just because?
Also, it would just promote an echo chamber like Twitter.
Communities does what you want already. In time, some will pop off and become the popular ones. Maybe some will be split because of users not agreeing with something, but that already happened on Reddit as well.
